In May of 2003, the United States invaded Iraq without a formal declaration of war. While there has been spirited debate about the justification for the war, there has been relatively little discussion about the lack of a formal declaration of war by Congress. When it has been brought up by libertarians and strict constitutionalists, the general argument against concern over this “formality” has been to point out H.J. Res. 114 (October 16, 2002), wherein Congress authorized the use of military force. The substance of the argument boils down to, “Congress authorized the president to use military force, so what is the difference between that and a declaration of war?
As we will see, there is a fundamental difference between a declaration of war and an authorization to use force. In fact, it is a distinction of enormous importance, for the former is the rightful defense of liberty by a free people, and the latter the unjustified initiation of aggression by an autocratic state. The implications reach to the very heart of our republic, calling into question our morality, our freedom, and our national sovereignty.
To understand this requires an understanding of what the founding fathers meant when they granted war powers to Congress. The founders based their ideas on government firmly upon the Enlightenment philosophers, who gave us our traditions of liberty. While war is popularly thought of as the active use of military force – the battles, skirmishes, airstrikes, invasions, etc. – these, properly understood, are not war. Rather, there is a state of war, separate from the actual fighting, that was clearly defined by the Enlightenment philosophers. This “state of war” must exist before military force is justified.
John Locke devotes an entire chapter to The State of War in his Second Treatise on Civil Government. In it, he writes,
“Men living together according to reason, without a common superior on earth, with authority to judge between them, is properly the state of nature. But force, or a declared design of force, upon the person of another, where there is no common superior on earth to appeal to for relief, is the state of war: and it is the want of such an appeal gives a man the right of war even against an aggressor, tho' he be in society and a fellow subject.”
So, according to Locke, the state of war can arise by either an aggressor using force, or declaring the intention to use force. In either case, the relationship between the two parties has changed from a state of nature, or a state of civil society (depending upon whether or not they live under a civil government), to a state of war. Thus, the state of war begins not with the first pitched battle or airstrike, but can begin merely by the aggressor declaring his intent to initiate force. War is a state, or a relationship, that exists totally apart from the physical act of fighting. Fighting or military action is actually a result of, or a response to, the state of war. The use of force is only justified in defense, when a state of war exists. He also writes,
“This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his power, take away everything else. And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me, i.e. kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself, whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it.”
While Locke is arguably the most direct philosophical influence on the founding fathers, other Enlightenment writers also view the state of war as a condition, or a relationship separate from any tangible use of force. Thomas Hobbes writes,
“For war consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain, but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting, but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace.”
While making an argument concerning conquests, Rousseau also recognizes that the state of war is a condition or relationship between two parties that exists outside of the actual fighting,
“First: because, in the first case, the right of conquest, being no right in itself, could not serve as a foundation on which to build any other; the victor and the vanquished people still remained with respect to each other in the state of war, unless the vanquished, restored to the full possession of their liberty, voluntarily made choice of the victor for their chief.”
Interestingly, Rousseau argues here that the state of war can continue after the fighting has ceased, as in his example of a conquered people still under the power of their conqueror.
Clearly, the Enlightenment philosophers recognized that the state of war was a condition or a relationship between two parties, separate and distinct from the martial actions that the parties take as a result. The state of war begins with the use of force or the declared intention to use force by an aggressor, and gives the other party the right to use lethal force to defend itself. Thus, in the tradition of liberty, the use of force is justified in defense when a man or a nation recognizes that an aggressor has put itself in a state of war with that man or nation. The state of war can also persist after the fighting ceases if the conditions which created it still exist.
This was the context in which the founding fathers gave power to Congress to declare war. It was not the power to initiate a war, which is never justified, but the power to officially recognize that a state of war already exists, and that force is therefore justified. This interpretation is supported by every request by a United States President for Congress to declare war, and every resolution of Congress to do so. James Madison was the first U.S. President to request that Congress declare war - against Great Britain in 1812. In his request, he said,
“We behold, in fine, on the side of Great Britain a state of war against the United States, and on the side of the United States a state of peace toward Great Britain.”
When Congress declared war upon Great Britain in 1812, the resolution reads,
“Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That war be and the same is hereby declared to exist between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the dependencies thereof, and the United States of America and their territories; and that the President of the United States is hereby authorized to use the whole land and naval force of the United States to carry the same into effect, and to issue private armed vessels of the United States commissions or letters of marque and general reprisal, in such form as he shall think proper, and under the seal of the United States, against the vessels, goods, and effects of the government of the said United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and the subjects thereof.”
Here we find a clear distinction between the state of war, which Madison argues already exists, and the commencement of the use of military force. Similarly, when James Polk asked Congress to declare war on Mexico in 1846, he said,
“But now, after reiterated menaces, Mexico has passed the boundary of the United States, has invaded our territory and shed American blood upon the American soil. She has proclaimed that hostilities have commenced, and that the two nations are now at war.
As war exists, and, notwithstanding all our efforts to avoid it, exists by the act of Mexico herself, we are called upon by every consideration of duty and patriotism to vindicate with decision the honor, the rights, and the interests of our country. . . .
In further vindication of our rights and defense of our territory, I invoke the prompt action of Congress to recognize the existence of the war, and to place at the disposition of the Executive the means of prosecuting the war with vigor, and thus hastening the restoration of peace.”
The official declaration reads,
“Whereas, by the act of the Republic of Mexico, a state of war exists between that Government and the United States: Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of American in Congress assembled, That for the purpose of enabling the government of the United States to prosecute said war to a speedy and successful termination…”
Both presidential requests and subsequent official declarations of war by Congress support that a state of war existed before the United States commenced planned military operations. In each case, the president makes his case for why the enemy nation has been the aggressor, and why he believes a state of war already exists, and requests that Congress formally declare it. In requesting a declaration of war with Spain, President McKinley states,
“I now recommend the adoption of a joint resolution declaring that a state of war exists between the United States of America and the Kingdom of Spain, that the definition of the international status of the United States as a belligerent power may be made known and the assertion of all its rights in the conduct of a public war may be assured.”
Congress’ official declaration not only recognizes that the war already exists, but actually specifies the date on which the state of war commenced,
“Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, First. That war be, and the same is hereby declared to exist, and that war has existed since the twenty-first day of April, anno Domini eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, including said day, between the United States of American and the Kingdom of Spain.”
Here, not only does Congress recognize that a state of war already exists, before the onset of planned military operations, but actually indicates the exact day on which the state of war began, taking the time to specify “including said day,” so that no mistake can be made about when the two nations entered a state of war.
President Wilson, in requesting a declaration of war with Germany in 1917, stated,
“…I advise that the Congress declare the recent course of the Imperial German government to be in fact nothing less than war against the government and people of the United States; that it formally accept the status of belligerent which has thus been thrust upon it; and that it take immediate steps, not only to put the country in a more thorough state of defense but also to exert all its power and employ all its resources to bring the government of the German Empire to terms and end the war.”
The official declaration reads,
“Whereas the Imperial German Government has committed repeated acts of war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Imperial German Government which has been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and that the President be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces…”
Here, Congress emphasizes that not only does the state of war exist, but that it has been “thrust upon” the United States by the acts of war committed by Germany. Thus, the official declaration not only recognizes the existence of the war but takes pains to officially identify Germany as the aggressor.
Finally, in President Roosevelt’s request for a declaration of war on Japan, he says,
“I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.”
In response, Congress resolves,
“Whereas the Imperial Government of Japan has committed unprovoked acts of war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States.”
After the United States declared war on Japan, Germany declared war on the United States, and the United States subsequently declared war on Germany, consistent with Locke’s premise that a state of war exists once an aggressor declares his intent to initiate force.
I have devoted the space to include each of these passages to demonstrate the consistency with which past requests and declarations of war have demonstrated the principle that a state of war must exist before planned military action is justified.
In the interest of brevity I have included in the passages from the presidential requests only the language where they specifically ask for Congress to declare war. It is equally important to note that in each case where a president requested a declaration of war, he preceded his request with a statement of the overt acts or the formal declarations of the aggressor nation that supported his belief that a state of war existed. This can be verified by simply going back and reviewing the entire text of each request for a declaration.
So, what conclusions can be drawn from this evidence, and what relevance does this have to the invasion of Iraq and other military operations that the United States has undertaken without a declaration of war?
First, there is the moral question. Was the invasion of Iraq justified? In the five wars that the United States fought under a formal declaration of war, the justification rested upon a president “making a case” that a state of war already existed between the United States and the nation in question. The president presented evidence, in the form of a list of overt acts or a declaration by the aggressor nation, supporting his claim that a state of war existed. Congress then deliberated on the evidence, and cast a vote that supported a formal declaration that, in fact, the United States was already at war. Certainly, there have been arguments made in the cases of each of the five declared wars that either the state of war did not truly exist or that it was instigated by the United States. However, the fact remains that both the executive and legislative branches followed a constitutional process that was far more than a formality or vestige left over from earlier, courtlier ages.
However, in the case of the war with Iraq, as in the Korean and Viet Nam wars, that process did not occur. Specifically in the case of Iraq, the dialogue was shifted away from whether or not a state of war existed to a debate about whether or not Iraq posed a threat to the security of the United States. That debate still rages today. However, in the context of the previous declared wars and the meaning behind the declarative powers granted to Congress, this debate is irrelevant. No interpretation of the Enlightenment philosophy or of the U.S. Constitution justifies military action merely on the basis of another nation representing a threat. As they did in the Korean and Viet Nam wars, the United States used military force when no state of war existed, thereby becoming, by definition, the aggressor.
Why is a declaration of war a fundamentally crucial issue? Obviously, President Bush would not have been able to request a declaration of war with Iraq. There were no overt acts of aggression by Iraq against the United States for him to cite as his evidence of a state of war. Neither was there a declaration by Iraq of their intention to use force against the United States. Quite the contrary, Saddam Hussein repeatedly denied his country’s possession of weapons of mass destruction and even invited President Bush to a conference in an attempt to avoid military conflict (President Bush declined). Hussein all but declared a state of “non-war” with the United States, so there was no case to be made for a state of war based upon a declaration of intent by an aggressor. Had the United States government held itself to the standard set by the Constitution and close to two hundred years of precedent, no war with Iraq could have occurred. Equally valid arguments can be made for the Korean War, the Viet Nam war, Grenada, Bosnia, Somalia, etc.
The moral case is even more damning when considering the “insurgency” which is still raging in Iraq, especially in the context of the Rousseau passage above. According to Rousseau, a state of war exists even after the cessation of fighting until “the vanquished, restored to the full possession of their liberty, voluntarily made choice of the victor for their chief.” Philosophically, the Iraqi insurgents have every right to go on killing Americans, their conqueror, until they are both restored to full possession of their liberty and have voluntarily chosen the United States, or the government that the United States installs, as their rightful government. Thus, the United States finds itself entangled in a war in which it is the aggressor and which can only end at the discretion of the people of Iraq, including the “insurgents.” We have seen similar results in two previous, undeclared wars. In Viet Nam, we left in disgrace. In Korea, we are still there, almost sixty years later. Perhaps there is a correlation between moral justification and success.
Second, there is a lingering question regarding sovereignty related to undeclared wars. Since the establishment of the United Nations, the United States has not declared war, yet has been almost continuously involved in military operations, almost exclusively under the auspices of U.N. resolutions. Another passage in Locke may speak directly to this.
“To avoid this state of war (wherein there is no appeal but to heaven, and wherein every the least difference is apt to end, where there is no authority to decide between the contenders) is one great reason of men's putting themselves into society, and quitting the state of nature: for where there is an authority, a power on earth, from which relief can be had by appeal, there the continuance of the state of war is excluded, and the controversy is decided by that power.”
The moral argument notwithstanding, there is the further question of whether the United States still has the right to declare war. By recognizing the United Nations as a world governing power, is it not true that, as Locke puts it, there is now always “an authority, a power on earth, from which relief can be had by appeal?” If the United Nations has any authority whatsoever, then by its own traditions of liberty, the United States has surrendered its right to declare war, even when it determines that a state of war does indeed exist. Certainly, this is a consideration that is beyond the imagination of most of its citizenry, but the evidence seems to indicate that it is nevertheless true. The implications of this are indeed foreboding when considering a United States of the future, in a world where it is no longer the undisputed military power that it is now, perhaps as a result of an economic decline that may be in its first stages already.
Finally, there is the question of an undeclared war’s implications for the liberty of the people. Certainly, the founders granted the federal government war powers out of recognized necessity. They lived, as we do, in a world where an aggressor nation could threaten the security of even a free, non-aggressive state. However, they granted those powers for the specific purpose of defense against aggression, including the power to declare war as a means to determine if a state of war existed. The declaration of war process provided a litmus test of whether or not military action was justified. Even in a volunteer army, an undeclared war exploits the solemn trust placed in civilian leaders by the brave soldiers that defend that nation. However, the United States has twice, in Korea and Viet Nam, compelled civilians to join the army and fight. Moreover, it is not just the soldiers that war places at risk. Indeed, civilian casualties in Iraq far outweigh those of soldiers on either side. In decades past, the United States has been insulated from civilian casualties because of its remoteness from the countries in which it has waged war. However, the 21st century has already shown us that remoteness no longer provides that insulation. Given the direct risk to U.S. citizens that war involves, does the United States government have the right to wage an undeclared war? Are a people really free when they can be put at risk and into debt by their government in the absence of a true state of war?
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I have a few questions (sorry if they are kind of pre-basic):
Can a state be at war with an entity other than another state (eg a trans-national coalition like Al Quaeda)?
Did the US ever declare war on either Afghanistan or Al Quaeda? I'm guessing the answer is no, based on Tom's post, but would like to know your thoughts about this.
Were the 9/11 attacks acts of war?
Thanks,
Claire
Based upon the philosophical tradition that our country was founded upon, absolutely yes. Locke actually builds his argument regarding the state of war between individuals.
Al Qaueda openly declared war upon the United States, and so a state of war existed from that moment on. The group that attacked NYC certainly committed acts of war upon those whom they attacked.
According to Locke's definition, every mugger who uses force to rob another has put himself in a state of war with his victim. It is that victim's right to "kill him if he can," according to Locke.
However, that being said, we must then question what parties the state of war existed between. No state of war existed between the United States and Iraq, until the United States invaded.
I think you can make a strong case that a state of war existed with Afghanistan, based upon their Taliban government's deliberate sheltering of Al Quaeda. They pretty much said to the world that we are going to give this group refuge and support their war against the United States and others. I would have to go back and research to back up that claim, but that is my recollection.
Outside of overt acts or declarations such as that, the state of war between Al Quaeda and the United States does not necessarily justify the United States invading any country wherein Al Quaeda members are hiding.
There is certainly a question of who is the aggressor in the United States' war with Al Quaeda. Al Quaeda has stated that they are waging war against America for putting American troops in their holy land, Saudi Arabia. The U.S. did this with the consent of the government, but it is a government that rules only at the behest of the United States, against the will of the Saudi Arabian people. Keeping that hated government in power is itself an act of war, much less putting troops into their land to occupy it.
All of that said, Al Quaeda certainly could not justify the 9/11 attacks based upon the state of war that existed.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
If I understand it correctly, according to Locke an individual can be at war with another individual (if there is no higher authority to appeal to), a group of individuals can be at war with another group, a state can be at war with another state, a group of individuals, or indeed even a single individual, assuming that person is not a citizen of the state in question and therefore not subject to the higher authority of its laws. Or if the citizen or group of citizens who committed the act of aggression don't consider the state's authority to be legitimate, then there is a state of civil war (assuming the citizens' claims are really legitimate-- otherwise they are to be thought of as defendants in a criminal case)
Isn't it kind of problematic if the individuals or groups at war with the state are in another state which has not officially sanctioned their actions, but is doing nothing to stop them, and they continue to plan and carry out attacks against the state whith which they are at war? Can the "victim" (for lack of a better word) state require, as a condition of peace with the home state of the individuals with whom they are at war-- that said "home" state apprehend and prosecute, or render to the "victim" state to prosecute, the individuals in question?
If the "home" state refuses to take an active role in bringing to justice the individuals committing acts of war against the "victim" state, can the victim state legitimately require, as a condition of peace with the home state, that their army may be allowed to enter the home state and use only whatever force is necessary to apprehend these individuals?
What if the government of the home state lacks proper authority over the state, say if the executive in charge is not in control of the army, or there is some dispute about who holds the power in that country? What if the laws of that country are illegitimate in an objective sense, that is, for example, if acts of aggression are permitted within that country, or if individuals may imprisoned or put to death for speaking freely? Suppose, for example, one of our citizens is being detained by another state for violating laws of that state which are not objectively legitimate, can we require, as a condition of peace with that country that the prisoner be returned to us?
I have asked a lot of questions. Please feel free to pick out the ones you would like to answer or just to ignore them all if you feel like it. I won't be offended.
I think this is a great point of discussion, because we've seen a precedent. As far as I remember, the Taliban made no secret that Al Quaeda was welcome within Afghanistan, and that they were openly hostile to non-Muslim countries and even non-orthodox Muslims in their own country. Even the Buddhists wanted a piece of these thugs, and that's saying something. :)
I believe your argument is strong there, where it is obvious to the whole world that they are not going to try to apprehend, and if fact are giving active aid and comfort, to a known enemy. Then, I think that the United States was justified to attack them and attempt to neutralize Al Quaeda and the government that had allied with them.
However, I believe the standard for this argument is extremely high. The Taliban met it. However, the United States obviously wouldn't be justified in dropping bombs on Mexico just because a bank robber escaped there and we didn't feel the Mexican authorities were doing enough to catch him. That is why I think that the process that the United States used to follow was so good (and even then we had unnecessary wars, one could argue). The President made his case that a state of war existed, and the entire body of Congress, with all of their different motivations, prejudices, perspectives, etc., got a chance to argue for or against the president, and then a vote was necessary. Given the enormous destructive potential of war, this "red tape" is not only useful, but vital to ensure that there is no other way to solve the problem, and that at least some reasonable case can be made that the state of war exists.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
While the powers to declare war were not a subject of great debate at the constitutional convention, evidence suggests that only Congress was to have the power to declare war. Pasted are some of the notes--if you look at my profile, you will find a link to a site known as the Founders' Constitution. It is a true wealth of philosophical and intellectual sources that contributed to the thoughts of the founders. Clearly, you will see in these notes that both Eldbrige Gerry and George Mason (both opposed the ratification of our constitution in their respective states) that in republican forms of government, only the legislature is to be given the power to declare war.
[1:19; Madison, 29 May]
[Mr. Randolph] then proceeded to enumerate the defects: 1. that the confederation produced no security agai[nst] foreign invasion; congress not being permitted to prevent a war nor to support it by th[eir] own authority--Of this he cited many examples; most of whi[ch] tended to shew, that they could not cause infractions of treaties or of the law of nations, to be punished: that particular states might by their conduct provoke war without controul; and that neither militia nor draughts being fit for defence on such occasions, enlistments only could be successful, and these could not be executed without money.
[2:318; Madison, 17 Aug.]
"To make war"
Mr Pinkney opposed the vesting this power in the Legislature. Its proceedings were too slow. It wd. meet but once a year. The Hs. of Reps. would be too numerous for such deliberations. The Senate would be the best depositary, being more acquainted with foreign affairs, and most capable of proper resolutions. If the States are equally represented in Senate, so as to give no advantage to large States, the power will notwithstanding be safe, as the small have their all at stake in such cases as well as the large States. It would be singular for one authority to make war, and another peace.
Mr Butler. The Objections agst the Legislature lie in a great degree agst the Senate. He was for vesting the power in the President, who will have all the requisite qualities, and will not make war but when the Nation will support it.
Mr. Madison and Mr Gerry moved to insert "declare," striking out "make" war; leaving to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks.
Mr Sharman thought it stood very well. The Executive shd. be able to repel and not to commence war. "Make" better than "declare" the latter narrowing the power too much.
Mr Gerry never expected to hear in a republic a motion to empower the Executive alone to declare war.
Mr. Elseworth. there is a material difference between the cases of making war, and making peace. It shd. be more easy to get out of war, than into it. War also is a simple and overt declaration. peace attended with intricate & secret negociations.
Mr. Mason was agst giving the power of war to the Executive, because not safely to be trusted with it; or to the Senate, because not so constructed as to be entitled to it. He was for clogging rather than facilitating war; but for facilitating peace. He preferred "declare" to "make".
On the Motion to insert declare--in place of Make, it was agreed to.
N. H. no. Mas. abst. Cont. no.1 Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo- ay. [Ayes--7; noes--2; absent--1.]
Mr. Pinkney's motion to strike out whole clause, disagd. to without call of States.
Mr Butler moved to give the Legislature power of peace, as they were to have that of war.
Mr Gerry 2ds. him. 8 Senators may possibly exercise the power if vested in that body, and 14 if all should be present; and may consequently give up part of the U. States. The Senate are more liable to be corrupted by an Enemy than the whole Legislature.
On the motion for adding "and peace" after "war"
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes--0; noes--10.]
It seems some of the Continental Congressman had read their Locke and some had not. :)
This is great, Scotty. It really shows the mix of perspectives present. I think we tend to think of all of the founding fathers as philosophers, but really they were mostly sensible people that were guided by a few philosophical giants. Some of them didn't get the philosophy at all. However, I'd bet that every one of them would have recognized what is going on now and probably started stockpiling weapons again.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
As a side issue on this declaration of war post, I am sure that most people noticed that even the few passages I included from Locke absolutely support the right to bear arms, as he says that even in civil society there are times when you have to defend yourself - like waiting on hold for 911 to answer.
The equivalent for a nation would be its right to possess nuclear weapons - or any other weapon that it felt necessary to defend itself. The other countries have no right to impose a "non-proliferation treaty," any more than our government has the right to seize our handguns. The fact that countries with nuclear weapons are threatening to use them on Iran if it merely brings itself into some semblance of balance with them (and even 100 wouldn't begin to approach parity with the U.S.) is downright tyrannical. "Freedom" has to work for everyone.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
For someone to think that a nuclear weapon is no more then a rifle or a surface to surface missle is inconceivable.
The ability to murder 1 million people at one time is as potent a threat as have 101 such weapons.
12 altruistic men can rush a man with a 6 shooter knowing that 6 will get through to end the threat. 12 nations do not have the right to allow one million of their citizens to die knowing that the other 11 nations will eventually finish the rogue.
I guess you are saying that the United States has no right to have nuclear weapons. We are the only nation to have used them in warfare (against civilians), and we have been the aggressor in war for the past 60 years.
I am just saying that Iran has every right to develop nuclear weapons if it wishes to. It is a sovereign nation, and possessing nuclear weapons is not a crime against anyone. Using them other than in self defense certainly would be, but the Iranians have not shown any will to aggression.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
Funny, Iran is one of the greatest funders of terrorism in the world today, now that iraq has been taken out of the picture.
I'm not sure what brought you to this site, but you certainly throw the word "idiot" around pretty loosely. I don't know if your proof of Iran's sponsoring of terrorism comes from the same place as John McCain's proof that Iran sponsors and trains Sunni Al Quaeda, but you seem to swallow whatever this government tells you without question, so perhaps the source of your proof isn't that important.
Some facts that are not in dispute - the United States has committed acts of war against Iran for over 50 years, starting with overthrowing their government in 1953, continuing with supporting the Shah for 20 years after that, again by arming Saddam Hussein with chemical and biological weapons and sending him to use them against Iran, and now finally with this coming, unjustified war. These are all facts that are not in dispute.
If you are content to be a slave, allowing your government to impoverish you with warfare and welfare programs that require a complete departure from reason to support, then you would probably look like less of an IDIOT yourself if you did so a little more quietly, not calling as much attention to your ignorance.
By the way, in keeping with your strong convictions, don't forget to endorse what's left of your paycheck (assuming you're employed) directly to the Pentagon. I hear they're running a bit short defending us from the Germans and China is getting sick of cutting us $3 billion checks every week.
Now, I don't want to keep you any longer. It's time for you to turn off your computer and all of your lights, and go creeping around your house from window to window, checking for Iranian terrorists. I believe we are on "orange alert" right now, so they could be here any minute. Cower safely,
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9362/#2
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/01/347a2c5f-088a-408b-a632-d5f...
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/html/pdf/Iran-Testimony-2-16-05.pdf
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/7/2/7/6/p7...
http://www.thewashingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2263
http://terrorism.about.com/od/iran/p/Iran2.htm
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/64337.htm
Coming here telling us what all Americans know already?
We really need proof CFR wants to attack Iran.
to this guy
Where is he from? I might consider moving there.
The founding fathers were the illuminati of their day, they never cared about the freedom of the people, they only created the constitution as misdirection.
If they cared about freedom the whiskey rebellion of 1790 would never have occured.
http://www.nps.gov/archive/frhi/whiskreb.htm
Anyone who proposes a system that requires forced control of any/all of it's population is a dupe of the NWO.
The Free Born Society has found a way to live without force, perhaps their answers will be satisfactory to you as well.
www.FreedomNowOk.org
WACKO ALERT
In defense of Hamilton, at least he was one of the founders that strongly believed that our national creditworthiness was tantamount to our national security. The Continental Congress as well as every one of the thirteen states were in massive debt as a result of the war for independence.
http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/archive/resources/documents/ch08...
The Hamilton finance plan he proposed pissed many of the founders off--especially Jefferson. And yes, it did lead to the Whiskey Rebellion and the first Bank of the United States--as well as the first American moonshiners. However, our war debt was consolidated and paid down.
I think you have to remember that Hamilton was the most in favor of the strongest of central governments, and certainly was not representative of all of the founding fathers. Jefferson, certainly, was diametrically opposed to many of Hamilton's ideas, and Madison, while the "father of the Constitution," was also far less disposed to grant too much power to the central government. If Hamilton were the sole founding father, I would wholeheartedly agree - I think he'd be very happy as the dictator of a third world country. However, I don't think it is fair to represent the founding fathers by his views.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
I hope to read more of your work.
The absence of legal and constitutional grounding for our war of aggression in Iraq is a huge issue that will have legal ramifications for Administration war--starters over a period of years/decades to come. Wheels of justice grind slowly . . . R
I see that we have lawyers and law students on this thread. If Bush were to invade Iran, who, outside of Congress, could formally arrest him? I believe he shoudl be arrested for war crimes, although, as correct as the position would be, I would hate to see an international court get involved. It only further weakens us/enslaves us from the sovereignty perspective.
What are your thoughts about this avenue of inquiry?
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
50 U.S.C.A. § 1541--the war powers resolution that authorized the President to use military force against Iraq also gave the President the authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."
The statute was then amended in 2006 to require the president to give Congress progress reports regarding Iraq as well as resolutions regarding the rebuilding of Iraq--however, the President (or the Pentagon) could, in theory, cook up some sort of terrorist story in Iran. This is in no way to be interpreted as legal advice, as I just finished my first year of law school--I am still quite ignorant of federal statutory interpretation. Moreover, I haven't even read the entire statute or all the caselaw that accompanies it.
From what I have read from the statute, I do not believe that the President can arbitrarily attack Iran unless "attacked" (that really doesn't mean much given the whole Gulf of Tonkin precedent). The President would have to gain some sort of Congressional authority in order to initiate an attack on Iran. The statute is rather convoluted, and it dates back to 1973 as a result of the whole Vietnam war.
As far as I am concerned, you have a strong argument regarding that a state of war between nations is a condition precedent to a declaration of war, and that there was no such state of war between our nation and Iraq. However, the President has acted (albeit questionably) with Congressional authority as far as Iraq was concerned. At present, I see no such state of war between us and Iran. So as far as anyone to point fingers at, we should really be putting more pressure on our Congressmen as opposed to the executive regarding the state of affairs between our nation and Iran, as Congress still has the true constitutional authority regarding any future action against Iran.
In my opinion (WHICH IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE), indicting the President for war crimes under U.S. law would be pretty far fetched--I don't even know if there is a federal war crimes statute. Furthermore, indicting the president for something such as perjury or fraud would be a difficult process as the President can simply claim that he acted on the advice of his advisers, etc..
Finally, to answer your question regarding who could formally arrest the President, it would appear that the President of the United States is subject to the laws of any jurisdiction in the United States that he or she is under. So, if the President shoplifted a stick of gum in your town, then he or she could be arrested by local law enforcement and tried under your municipal code or state law. Apparently, one such town in Vermont, I believe it was, passed one such resolution that the President should be arrested if he were to enter their jurisdiction because of his abuse of presidential power--it would be interesting to see if something like that ever happened in U.S. history. Of course, the House of Representatives can issue orders of impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors.
Well, I'm just ranting right now. I hope I shed some insight on this matter, but I do not claim to have any more knowledge regarding this subject than you.
We are actively sanctioning Iran - which could be considered economic warfare. We have designated their army a terrorist organization - we are pushing for more and more sanctions/restrictions/etc... and if any of those have the effect of crippling some segment of the Iranian economy it may be seen by the Iranians as acts of aggression/war. We have also taken into custody various members of Iranian security service and diplomats in Iraq. We constantly accuse Iran of killing U.S. servicemembers and supplying insurgents with all their weapons. Sy Hersh and others claim that u.s. special forces are operating inside Iran doing who knows what. In other words, it seems we keep agitating for some type of spectacular retaliation - which would then be the incentive to actually bomb Iran in a conventional sense.
I don't think you can argue that sanctions are an act of war, although they may be unjustified and immoral in some cases. They do not, however, represent the use of force. In fact, they are exactly the opposite - they are people voluntarily deciding not to trade with a particular nation. If, on the other hand, some nation decided not to participate in the sanctions, and the U.S. used force to keep them from breaking them, then I think you can make a case for a state of war between the U.S. and the nation ignoring the sanctions and the sanctioned nation.
In all of your other examples, yes, the U.S. has committed acts of war against Iran. Kidnapping their officials, covert operations within their borders, overthrowing their government (1953), supporting the hated Shah, arming their enemies (Saddam Hussein), and these latest threats to attack them if they pursue a nuclear weapon (which we have no right to prohibit ANY sovereign nation from doing) all constitute acts of war for which the Iranians could justly "kill us if they can." The only reason the Iranians do not commence military operations against us is because they can't win.
It sickens my heart to know that the United States has become the aggressor bully that it once fought against. I am always reminded of that scene in Damien Omen II when the teenage Damien first realizes the truth - HE is the devil. Someday, Americans will have the same horrifying epiphany.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
"get out of jail free" card in a monopoly game.
It would be interesting to see Bush defend the "..necessary and appropriate force .." sentence.
It's really scary to think that Congress abdicated its constitutional power to this guy. Our best hope is that the people pulling his strings have a decent amount of common sense and restraint.
Just kidding! :) THanks for working through that. I suppose that's the problem, the Congress has authorized him to use his "discretion." If only he had any... (and it still would be wrong).
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
Because the power of government to arrest, like all of its other powers, stems
from the consent of the sovereign individuals it governs, any citizen is empowered
to make that arrest.
And I really want to see what any lawyers, law students, or anybody else thinks about
that admittedly unpractical notion.
So many crimes have been committed by this administration I think they could
all be arrested at any time. Most of Congress too, for their votes on HR.1955 and
other failures. There is ample evidence in the public record for a major housecleaning.
Trying to make a citizens arrest of the president will get you a very rapid introduction to the Secret Service, and perhaps some jail time.