No more ladies, no more gentlemen.

Now we're all just dudes and chicks now.

Government has solved the age old dilemma of the alchemists. In order to turn lead into gold, just add blood.

I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I am a witness to the radical social changes in our society and the horrendous damage it has done to the family. If loss of chivalry was the only negative consequence of feminism we would be fortunate indeed. I readily admit that there have been some good results in the way that men treat women, but the condition of the contemporary family is stark evidence of the terrible price that has been paid for the so-called "liberation" of women.

It seems to me that honest labels are a good thing. However the not so accurate labels can be dangerous. It's like putting rat poison in a container marked as Milk. Labels we attach to people can be critially important. One example might be murderer, rapist, terrorist....

What happens when you label a woman a feminist? Is your imediate reaction one of delight, intimidation, uncertainty... I think for me it is uncertanty. I don't know what the word (label) means because to each person it can mean something completely different. Does it affect how you are treated? You bet it does.

Open doors, pay for dinner... Some femanists would be pissed if you did try to do this. Some might think you were after something if you attempted to pay for dinner (they could be right, however, it might just be to quickly end the evening). I have opened doors for my wife for over 30 years now. I was not taught to do it. I AM motivated to do it out of love and most importantly RESPECT.

We typically door say things to get ourselves a label. What do we want to be known as? How do we want to be perceived? It is all up to us. I have a lofty list of labels for myself. However saying them outloud here would reduce the power of the labels I want for myself. I want my words and more importantly my actions to dictate them clearly to everyone I meet.

I would just like to post this last comment. I know it is important for this web site to get funding, however the banners for shopping for Muslim wives and pretty Vietnamese women I find quite disturbing. It implies a very strong negative LABEL.

Bob

Hillary Clinton.

So election 2008 comes around and we have a viable woman candidate running for president. And I registered Republican to vote for Ron Paul. My mother stopped speaking to me for a week and my grandmother rolled in her grave. I felt it.

I have felt so torn...on one hand, Hillary does not represent any significant change and is arguably just as bad as McCain. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that our system actually works and that *they* just put whoever they want in office anyway. In that case, I feel justified voting for a woman. Just for the symbol of it. And then, knowing that there are many who wouldn't vote for her just because she is a woman, I almost feel obligated to support her.

Repression of women is still a huge problem- we get paid less, we have a fraction of representation in government and business, we are the victims of domestic violence and poverty, and on and on. World wide, women own something like 1% of the land. If we are serious about change, we have to get serious about changing the role of women in our country and the world.

This is not about challenging the strengths of masculinity, or diminishing the value of manhood. It is about recognizing the strengths of the feminine and restoring balance. We are so out of wack it makes my head spin.

to show women that the man still believes in chivalry, yes the mans responsability. Women have demanded a new role in society,yes, but the man must also show the woman that she is wonderful and beautiful in order for her to know that this man cares for her as a whole person. The system has been broken and twisted, but by no means is it beyond repair. Hey fellas show them ladies how much you think of them and the ladies will open up. They have been taught to put up a wall but we must show them that we arent trying to break them but to enjoy life WITH them!!

I'm 26 years old, and I have no memory of a time when men pulled out chairs for women or opened their car doors for them. Personally, I feel really uncomfortable when men are overly chivalrous. It's not because I get offended by it or anything. (I'm not much of a feminist--don't get me wrong--I think that there was a time when feminism was necessary and proper, but that time has passed. As far as I can tell, the battle has been won. These days, I see radical feminism as detrimental to the relationship between men and women, and I do not appreciate the type of feminist who would accuse every man who so much as looks in the direction of a woman of sexual harassment.)

Maybe I'm just not used to it, but whenever I'm with a guy who is overly attentive, I just feel--I don't know--under pressure? I don't know what it is, but I don't like it when men go out of their way to be chivalrous. I mean, it's okay if they hold the door for me, or if we approach the car from the passenger side and they unlock the door for me (but if they go around the car to unlock my door--that's just too much).

And it's okay if they offer to pay, but whether or not I let them pay depends on how much money I think they make. If they obviously make a lot more than I do, then I will let them pay, but if they make about the same amount or less than I do, then I usually won't let them pay. I think that makes sense, and I don't like it when they insist on paying even though I clearly want to pay my share.

all the well intentioned women who were rightfully tired of being told their opinion didn't count...

I do think the media helped influence the fem movement and I think the fem movement was co-opted by special interests that aimed to weaken resistance to the state by weakening the family

But as a woman I am also privy to the downside of our quest for equality --feminist blowback. Namely (and I admit generalizing here), that males born post the bra-burning beginning of the Feminist Movement are devoid of chivalrous values. Gasp! Did we murder them in our virtuous struggle for independence and gender equality? Did we mean to? What were we smoking?"

I have been reading on this exact subject. I just finished reading a book called A RETURN TO MODESTY: Discovering the Lost Virtue by Wendy Shalit . The author cites mostly media shifts. She compares how media presents a situation from before the woman's liberation movement and how media shifted afterwards. Here is a brief description:

Where once a young woman had to be ashamed of her sexual experience, today she is ashamed of her sexual inexperience. Where not long ago an unmarried woman was ashamed to give public evidence of sexual desire by living with someone, today she must be ashamed to give evidence of romantic desire. From sex education in grade school to coed bathrooms in college, today's young woman is being pressured relentlessly to overcome her embarrassment, her "hang-ups," and especially her romantic hopes."

I highly recommend this book if you are interested in the subject. It changed how I look at a lot of things. I do not think women murdered the chivalrous man as much as media may have influenced behavior changes. Women were also conditioned to see accepting this kind of chivalrous treatment as a weakness and a "hang up".

Insofar as pulling out her chair, walking with her on the inside of the sidewalk, opening her door, or helping her with her coat, I suppose one woman’s ‘respected’ is another’s ‘repressed.’ I believe such chivalrous acts to be born of respect and adoration. Am I alone here? It’s difficult to imagine an entire generation of young women demanding to "open their own damn door."

I know many people see these small gestures as trivial, but they served a purpose. They were an indicator to a woman of what kind of man she was getting involved with and it was a reminder to men that women are different from them. I almost see the women's lib movement liberating men more so than women.

Can we get it back, or is it as unattainable as the body we had ten years ago?"

I think we can, it will take time though.

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." ~Voltaire

Of course, when a knight saved a maiden, he expected...er...payment in return...

Anyway, back to topic:

We were born in the same year, though I'm a few months older than you, whipper-snapper.

I open the door for men, women, or anyone else who's near. I'm an equal opportunity door-holder. Being a doorstop is one of my few skills.

I open the door for my wife, walk to the outside (street) when walking, and so forth. I don't open her car door (she has made it clear that she likes it when we're on a formal date or whatever, but it's a nuisance otherwise) often, nor do I insist on carrying everything for her. I offer, but don't insist.

On the other hand, I have learned a few things from the mothers of girls I've dated through my life. I never just pulled up to the curb and honked the horn. I always presented myself to the door. I always had the girl home well before midnight and I always saw her to her door. Parents notice this respect - and should. If a young man showed up to take a daughter of mine on a date and didn't behave this way, I'd chase him off without delay. None of this means I always picked up the check or did all the driving, though.

Women should make clear, through gesture and words, what they really want from a man in these regards. Don't be afraid to tell a man he's being rude or that you'd prefer he do certain things. Most will not object. Don't be afraid to receive the same from us, though. I've told my wife that I won't get all "country uppity" (her words) over her making a body noise or issuing an occasional curse (she was in the Navy, after all).

Of course, I'm just a stupid truck driver from Wyoming, born in JANUARY of 1973. Which makes me your senior, Lisa. Don't forget it! :)

--Aaron
The Militant Libertarian
http://www.MilitantLibertarian.org

what a relatively calm and thoughtful post
I was pleasantly surprised to see your profile at the bottom!

People love labels. It makes them feel safer. If we can label something or someone, it saves us time from actually thinking about it thoroughly. No one can presume what another needs, that's why communication is so important. Sure, in the macro, the fight women have gone through is real, and luckily we can all change into better people. But if we communicate (our wants and needs) to the individual, be they male or female, with our respect and love, and a great smattering of politeness, these labels are no longer needed. These roles don't have to fit specific guidelines any longer. Our presuppositions of what should be and what shouldn't be limit us in our capacity to think different, change, and come out of the proverbial box. It's time in this revolution to start actually applying the philosophy of individual freedom and liberty in our own micro world. Once that is applied, everyone, be they male, female, young or old are all treated with respect and dignity. It is in our small communities that this message of liberty succeeds. And they start with the individual, and then the people around him. Opening doors and buying dinners are trivialities compared to the rights and freedoms of the individual. For we know, the group, however we categorize and label, can gain nothing the individual already possesses.

peace.

mov't is incomplete I think. Men held all the public power -- that's for sure. But if the man/women relationship was anything back then like it is today then women still had a "sphere of influence" from which they dominated.

The whole reason why men get jobs and positions of power anyway is to attract a mate. The feminist mov't has turned biology on its head!

The logical conclusion of feminism is that men are sperm donors -- nothing more.

Good luck with the research!

I have no answer, other than to say that this is why men find woman so confusing. Do you want preferential treatment or just equal treatment? Or do you want 'equal treatment' from every guy who you aren't romantically or physically involved with - because in exchange for the possibility of sexual relations with you the 'boyfriend guy' gets to pay for everything and spoil you and treat you like a princess? Too cynical?

So long as he does the dishes every other day...

Chronologically or historically, I dont think the woman's lib movement can be blamed for the death of chivalry. The woman's lib movement was a logical consequence of generations of mistreatment, discrimination, and other sordid affairs. I think men, in general, can be blamed for most of all that because of their positions of relative power in all affairs of society (church, government, corporate, whatever). I guess the only question as to woman's share of the blame for chivalry's death is whether ya'all took woman's lib too far - which seems like a ridiculous thing to write. But given the fact that chivalry is most certainly dead in some quarters of society, blame has to be layed somewhere. And I would prefer it not be me or my gender :)

On a personal aside: As a 29 yr old single urbanite, I have found some woman downright resentful if I would offer to pay for a date - as if even offering was insulting (I could just see their expression, "oh, he is one of THOSE type of men"). Other girls are completely cool with it (or indifferent) and some actually expect it. Education levels and breast size seem to have something to do with all this, but im not sure in what proportion. Im working on a thesis and need to gather more facts...

"The truth is treason in the empire of lies." Dr. Ron Paul, Preface, The Revolution: A Manifesto, p. x

hey is me neo NeoDaCon vowt for the top tear

i like to kiss girls

grils like to kis me

your best friend

NeoDaCon
rmeber the alamo

belittled the role that men traditionally play as protector, provider and that has directly contributed to the lack of chivalry.

Opening a door for a woman is a nice thing and I try to do it though I first had to get over my fear of being sued for somehow suggesting gender inequality.

Is picking up the tab for dinner being chivalrous? I think so- it suggests wanting to care for and provide. Then again, Women demanding equal pay make this option less practical.

The notion of chivalry derives from the concept that the world is a dangerous place full of dragons, etc. and that pure and fragile women ought be protected by brave knights. When women insist that they are completely capable of handling things on their own from working, to raising children then Chivalry is laid to rest.

Feminism has weakened the family and is responsible for the term "metrosexual". Congratulations!

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I think that if anything can be learned from this article, it's the fact that if women want something bad enough, then they will get it. Therefore, if you want your man to open the car door for you, then by all means, speak your mind and make it happen! You don't even have to tell him, you only have to start making an issue of it. For example, a bunch of women holding signs that say "Where are all the chivalrous men out there?" Men will in turn think "hmmm...that's what women want now!" Viola! The tables have turned...and a new era of chivalrous men begins. Of course, I have simplified this a great deal. But you get the idea! LMW

Your article is great. I agree with you for the most part. I was born in 1975 when International Women's Year was declared by the UN, also the Watergate scandal had occurred. Also, Ella Grasso becomes Governor of Connecticut, the first woman U.S. governor who did not succeed her husband.

I believe in my own personal life that my relationship with my husband has gone on to a different level; we have more interesting conversations. I find more men do listen to what I have to say, not because I'm a woman but because I have disciplined myself to be educated on certain issues--I hope that my assumption is right and that my woman's intuition kicks in! ;)

-Cynthia

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