Millions of people word wide support an re-investigation. Military personal, physicists, demolition experts, doctors, lawyers, farmers, ranchers, computer programmers, UN members, governmental members, activists. The list goes on, why dont you inform yourself....
Ron Paul Supports it.
http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=1874
Another false flag is coming. High-Level Officials Warn of Fake Terror.
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/04/high-level-officials-warns...
Google 9/11 Truth.
http://www.google.co.za/search?q=911+truth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=or...
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http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=1874
Claiming that Ron Paul supports 9/11 truth doesn't work.
Obviously, that too is a conspiracy.
again. I don't think it's in his platform. But when asked by student scholars for 9/11 truth he was strongly in favor of a new investigation and his comment was along the lines of "you'd be wise to doubt the veracity of the gov't. History would support that" -- I am paraphrasing. The video is on youtube.
do you have a link on YouTube? The only one I can find is this, where he disavows any belief in a 9/11 conspiracy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
I have a hard time debating people who use dishonesty as a tool.
I googled "Ron Paul 9/11 Investigation" and it popped right up. Maybe we should go back to Claire wondering about if it's reasonable to expect not to be lied to. Your answer was no, and now I realize that I'll have to hold you to that criteria. In other words, Neil, I will now expect you to lie to me.
I doubt you've looked up a single thing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OumAnh8oWbU
Here's the link in which Paul clearly states his position that he supports a new investigation. Your credibility just suffered a controlled demolition in my opinion and now I think I'm done with you.
Adam, I don't use dishonesty as a tool.
I tried the link that was posted and it did not work. I reported to you what I did find. I asked you if you cold forward the link, which you have, and I have now looked at.
Ron Paul supported an investigation into the governments ineptness and repeated that theme throughout the interview. Do you ever listen to anything with anything but your conspiracy earmuffs on? He in no way suggested a conspiracy other than to cover up possible ineptitude. He in no endorsed 9/11 truthers theories. And he specifically disavowed them in the link that I posted.
As for not telling the truth, I gave specific instances where it would be right to do so - as in to a murderer to save someone's life. Twisting that to say I endorse lying is just the kind of tactic I have come to expect of you.
Anyone who honestly supports an (unbiased) investigation would refrain from reaching a firm conclusion before the investigation is conducted and concluded
My point was that Ron Paul supports a new investigation into 9/11 and I just proved it
in the meantime, I'm not claiming that he believes 9/11 is a conspiracy (anyone running for pres would be foolish to voice this opinion) but that when asked he supported a new investigation. I won't click on your link because I already know he's stated he doesn't believe 9/11 was an inside job. Also, I've clinked on a bunch of your links and some have been offline and a few have seemed to be off topic.
I'll dig up the link. But I hope you realize that you're link doesn't counter my statement that he supports a new investigation. You do realize that right?
He supports an investigation into the incompetence that happened to allow 9/11 to occur - he disavowed the 9/11 conspiracy theory. You just don't listen, Adam. Your mind is so focussed on your conclusion that you don't even hear any contrary evidence.
If I heard solid, contrary evidence that proved that 9/11 really occured, and that explosives were planted, I'd change my position in a heartbeat. In other words, my position is falsifiable, which means based on my honest and diligent assessment of the evidence. Your opinion is a matter of faith, completely blind to any counter evidence. If someone demonstrated that every tenet in the 9/11 theory was false, you'd still believe it - you'd just claim that it is evidence of an even deeper conspiracy.
My opinion is based on evidence--- mountains of it have been presented in this and other threads
For you to claim otherwise is to ignore the truth (something you're pretty good at)
It's also a cheap attempt (I didn't comment on the first one) to try to merge the 9/11 truth thread into the believers vs. non believers discussion
Stop lying!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5_K5ZoRjwM
"And what is this liberty, whose very name makes the heart beat faster and shakes the world?" -- Frederic Bastiat
Time for the world to stand up...
(Please watch these videos and read message below)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf7oLr7rBCo
Please take the time to read this communication.
On 4th July 2008 - A peaceful non-violent demonstration will take place in cities around the world to expose the fraud, corruption and lies at the heart of our governments. It is an opportunity to express your right to free independent thought and to begin the fight to reclaim your liberties and freedoms. On the streets of London, on the sidewalks of Washington D.C, in the heart of Athens and in every other political Capital across the world, demonstrations will take place to demand a return of proper representative government. This may represent a final opportunity for the citizens of the world to stand together to demand the independent free world we all want to live in -- WE the people of the world will be heard on this day 04th JULY 2008.
We encourage all citizens of the world to embark on a journey of discovery now. Through independent research you can gain an understanding of what your governments are doing in your name and the kind of world they are planning for your future. This is not about a far distant country or peoples you do not know, this is about your country, your local community, your family, your friends. It will affect all our futures and concerns all the good people of our world.
It may prove difficult to grasp, given the constant barrage of propaganda from media institutions, but YOUR government is systematically removing YOUR liberties, YOUR freedoms and YOUR very right to exist as a free thinking individual. In many countries the aim of totalitarian dictatorship has already been achieved and understand this, history teaches sound lessons to us all concerning the consequences of allowing dangerous people to take control and 'change' our 'view' of the world around us.
We at visionary-peace are promoting the 4th of July as a day of independent free thought, through peaceful protest. It represents something we can all relate to and represents why we must all stand up and shout for our freedom. The time for media diversion and lies is over. The time for demonstration is NOW. We must raise public awareness to the dangers ahead. The actions of the global elites must not be ignored by good people any longer. These thieves and liars must fail to achieve their ultimate objective now. WE are all fighting for our right to exist now, whether we realise it or not.
The plans of the New World Order are cloaked behind the veil of economic crisis, terrorism, globalisation and corporate partnership. Our governments have been effectively 'taken-over'. Believe me, your elected representatives are not who they appear to be. Investigate their 'backgrounds' for yourself. Look for the family/historic/organisational connections and understand this - your democracy has been usurped by very undemocratic organisations. These people have an agenda which ultimately aims to achieve TOTAL CONTROL over the life of every individual.
'Imagine the future as a size twelve boot stamping on the face of humanity for eternity', because this is the future the global elite are embarking upon. It will mean the end of your freedom, the end of your liberty, the end of your choice, the end of your individuality. ONLY through protest and civil disobedience can these planned changes to our way of life be halted -- Only the citizens of the world, united as ONE can stop the illegal and fraudulent conduct of our governments. TOGETHER we can put a stop to the monstrous totalitarian future our 'elected' representatives have planned for us.
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Most of the people who react angrily to those that have reached a different conclusion from the one offerred by the gov't -- have never engaged in any independent research.
They are usually responding from an emotional bias. They feel so strongly that the gov't would never do anything like this that they don't need to examine the facts.
There are several instances of declassified info concerning gov't staged attacks - going back to the battleship Maine (and farther back I'm sure) and progressing through the Gulf of Tomkin. Why would anyone assume that something that is documented and uncontested (gov't staging or lying about attacks to lead country into war) as having occurred repeteadly in the past simply stopped occuring after the Vietnam war.
The benefit of reading history is that it helps to awaken a new and informed perspective on the present. All of the things revealed by the passage of time and captured in history books remain buried in the present. It will take years for the smoke to clear and the facts to be known.
In the meantime I would strongly encourage those who disparage "truthers" to examine the facts for themselves.
How could anyone reach a conclusion and be so certain if they haven't studied the facts?
The funny thing is, most people, upon examining the facts, become truthers and not the other way around.
Is that they support more conspiracy theories.
Chemtrails are not "nonsensical conspiracy theory". They are real.
Similarly, anyone familiar with the MK-Ultra project know that mind control is not conspiracy theory. It is conspiracy fact.
You know, when people talk about an issue, and people tell them there crazy, or wrong, etc, and then the government declassifies the information(like MK-Ultra) and the same people still dont believe you, that is when you know that the brainwashing is vast, and we are in alot of trouble.
The Idea that "truthers" will bring down BTW amazes me. First what a great and funny label to be called.
I would still say that most of the folks here on BTW are "truthers" in one way our another for what ever cause they feel passionate about. I am so tired of the word "conspiracy" thrown around- and mostly used to shut down rational thought.
It is amazing to me that people whom know are government has lied to us in so many ways continue to call those demanding for a new and independent investigation "kooks, wacko's Conspiracy nut balls"
We could look at the ways most of our wars have been started. "Remember the Maine" looked into further -another false flag- look into FDR's actions against the Japan's - and the numbers of things that truly look like they were set up to let the japan's come to Pearl Harbor (looks like another place where the government decided to let innocent peoples die) We could talk about the Gulf of Tonkin- another lie set in place, to get us into Vietnam. Our latest war in Iraq full of lies of WMD and Al -Queda connections. A good percentage of peoples still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9-11
the list is long- The masses are expendable to those with power and money. The rich and powered are not those sacrificed in our wars.
This one day in time (9-11) has shaped all of our policies in the last seven years; the patriot acts, the loss of Habeas Corpus, the military commissions act, and the loss of much life, both American and foreign.
The Official 9-11 investigation - is so full of holes, the story is so hard to swallow if one takes time to truly look at the evidence that exist.
BUT.. If one takes takes that time and looks all the different angles, including the money trails, and wall street put options, to the evidence that a number of the supposed hijackers still being alive.- Oh my god I could go on and on and on- Nothing really makes sense in our governments official "conspiracy story"
Even our leaders dick and george, would only face the commission together, not under oath, with no notes allowed to be taken-(excuse me but I want to swear really loud,WHAT THE F)
I do not know the truth of what truly happened on that day. No "truther" does. Yes the movement does has its wacko's and outrageous theories. but.....
The majority of us standing up and demanding answers are educated, patriotic, intelligent peoples.
Last I looked at the numbers at least half of Americans believe that we are being lied to about 9-11.
We are not here to ruin your movement.
We have all been brainwashed in so many ways - Lets break the matrix standing together.
was surrounded in italics, but I do appreciate the irony. I also appreciate the irony in your take on it.
As to your argument from authority:
"Last I looked at the numbers at least half of Americans believe that we are being lied to about 9-11." I seem to recall that about 48% of Americans favor Obama and about 42% of Americans favor McCain - so much for majorities and and wisdom of crowds.
"I am so tired of the word "conspiracy" thrown around- and mostly used to shut down rational thought."
The reason the term "conspiracy" is "thrown around" is because "truthers" are alleging that one took place. If that is not what they are alleging, what on earth are they talking about?
Now many people have looked at the evidense and decided differently than you, for which they have been called all kinds of things as well, many of which were euphamisms for uninformed, stupid, or gullible. Well, I have looked at Both sides of this issue, and based on that I made a decision. I also tuned into some debates on the issue, and put them here:
http://www.breakthematrix.com/Terrorism/The-Debate-on-9-11-BOTH-sides-of...
But I do find some agreement with your closing line. There have been many attempts to brainwash us and to accept fallacious arguments, but the only defence we have is our reason and our willingness know how to use, and then to go about using it.
We are within a Matrix, but what is it? The Matrix is a set of ideas and it is those ideas, those perspectives if you will, that have to be challenged - and the only tool we have is our reason.
of three textbook, picture perfect controlled demolitions and be brainwashed into thinking that they're not is proof that mind control works.
[edit] Reaction of the engineering community
The controlled demolition hypothesis has been dismissed in the structural engineering literature.[4][66] Northwestern University Professor of Civil Engineering Zdeněk Bažant, who was the first to offer a published peer reviewed hypothesis of the collapses, mentions the controlled demolition hypothesis in passing in a 2007 paper, co-authored with Mathieu Verdure. Affirming the view as presented in the NIST report, they note "a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives" as an exception. Bažant and Verdure trace such "strange ideas" to a "mistaken impression" that safety margins in design would make the collapses impossible. One of the effects of a more detailed modeling of the progressive collapse, they say, could be to "dispel the myth of planted explosives". Indeed, Bažant and Verdure have proposed examining data from controlled demolitions in order to better model the progressive-collapse of the towers, suggesting that progressive collapse and controlled demolition are not two separate modes of failure (as the controlled demolition hypothesis assumes).[4]
Thomas Eagar, a professor of materials science and engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, also dismissed the controlled demolition hypothesis.[67] Eagar remarked, "These people (in the 9/11 truth movement) use the 'reverse scientific method.' They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion."[68] Finally, Leslie Robertson, who helped design the Twin Towers, debated Steven Jones on a radio program in December 2006.[69][70]
In April of 2008, a letter by advocates of the demolition hypothesis was published as a paper in an online peer-reviewed civil engineering journal.[71] [72] They have also created organizations toward associating professionals in architecture and engineering.
heard of architects and engineers for 9/11 truth? They are a large and growing group. Of course by asserting that you believe the lie, you make friends and advance your career. By speaking out against the lie you risk losing a great deal. Obviously that is an important distinction to consider.
Right about the Chemtrails, and MK-Ultra...
http://www.weatherwars.info
I don't see a problem with asking for satisfactory answers to clearly, hitherto, unanswered questions. Why on earth should ANYONE have a problem with it? There is a big difference between that and blathering on about nonsensical conspiracy theories such as a fake moon landings, chemtrails and HARRP weather/mind control. Does anyone really believe that any government (even ours..or maybe I should say especially ours) is above nefarious top seceret behavior? One would have to possess a rare degree of naïveté to dismiss such things out of hand.
In 1973 or so, when I was a kid of about 14, I read a book called None Dare Call it Conspiracy~ by Gary Allen. I have never looked at the world in the same way since.
Here's an Excerpt:
"Those who believe that major world events result from planning are laughed at for believing in the "conspiracy theory of history." Of course, no one in this modern day and age really believes in the conspiracy theory of history — except those who have taken the time to study the subject. When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen. In reality, it is the accidental theory of history preached in the unhallowed Halls of Ivy which should be ridiculed. Otherwise, why does every recent administration make the same mistakes as the previous ones? Why do they repeat the errors of the past which produce inflation, depressions and war? Why does our State Department "stumble" from one Communist-aiding "blunder" to another? If you believe it is all an accident or the result of mysterious and unexplainable tides of history, you will be regarded as an "intellectual" who understands that we live in a complex world. If you believe that something like 32,496 consecutive coincidences over the past forty years stretches the law of averages a bit, you are a kook!
Why is it that virtually all "reputable" scholars and mass media columnists and commentators reject the cause and effect or conspiratorial theory of history? Primarily, most scholars follow the crowd in the academic world just as most women follow fashions. To buck the tide means social and professional ostracism. The same is true of the mass media. While professors and pontificators profess to be tolerant and broadminded, in practice it's strictly a one way street-with all traffic flowing left. A Maoist can be tolerated by Liberals of Ivory Towerland or by the Establishment's media pundits, but to be a conservative, and a conservative who propounds a conspiratorial view, is absolutely verboten. Better you should be a drunk at a national WCTU convention!
Secondly, these people have over the years acquired a strong vested emotional interest in their own errors. Their intellects and egos are totally committed to the accidental theory. Most people are highly reluctant to admit that they have been conned or have shown poor judgment. To inspect the evidence of the existence of a conspiracy guiding our political destiny from behind the scenes would force many of these people to repudiate a lifetime of accumulated opinions. It takes a person with strong character indeed to face the facts and admit he has been wrong even if it was because he was uninformed. Such was the case with the author of this book. It was only because he set out to prove the conservative anti-Communists wrong that he happened to end up writing this book. His initial reaction to the conservative point of view was one of suspicion and hostility; and it was only after many months of intensive research that he had to admit that he had been "conned."
Politicians and "intellectuals" are attracted to the concept that events are propelled by some mysterious tide of history or happen by accident. By this reasoning they hope to escape the blame when things go wrong.
Most intellectuals, pseudo and otherwise, deal with the conspiratorial theory of history simply by ignoring it. They never attempt to refute the evidence. It can't be refuted. If and when the silent treatment doesn't work, these "objective" scholars and mass media opinion molders resort to personal attacks, ridicule and satire. The personal attacks tend to divert attention from the facts which an author or speaker is trying to expose. The idea is to force the person exposing the conspiracy to stop the exposure and spend his time and effort defending himself.
However, the most effective weapons used against the conspiratorial theory of history are ridicule and satire. These extremely potent weapons can be cleverly used to avoid any honest attempt at refuting the facts. After all, nobody likes to be made fun of. Rather than be ridiculed most people will keep quiet; and, this subject certainly does lend itself to ridicule and satire. One technique which can be used is to expand the conspiracy to the extent it becomes absurd. For instance, our man from the Halls of Poison Ivy might say in a scoffingly arrogant tone, "I suppose you believe every liberal professor gets a telegram each morning from conspiracy headquarters containing his orders for the day's brainwashing of his students?" Some conspiratorialists do indeed overdraw the picture by expanding the conspiracy (from the small clique which it is) to include every local knee-jerk liberal activist and government bureaucrat. Or, because of racial or religious bigotry, they will take small fragments of legitimate evidence and expand them into a conclusion that will support their particular prejudice, i.e., the conspiracy is totally "Jewish," "Catholic," or "Masonic". These people do not help to expose the conspiracy, but, sadly play into the hands of those who want the public to believe that all conspiratorialists are screwballs.
"Intellectuals" are fond of mouthing cliches like "The conspiracy theory is often tempting. However, it is overly simplistic." To ascribe absolutely everything that happens to the machinations of a small group of power hungry conspirators is overly simplistic. But, in our opinion nothing is more simplistic than doggedly holding onto the accidental view of major world events.
In most cases Liberals simply accuse all those who discuss the conspiracy of being paranoid. "Ah, you right wingers," they say, "rustling every bush, kicking over every rock, looking for imaginary boogeymen." Then comes the coup de grace-labeling the conspiratorial theory as the "devil theory of history." The Liberals love that one. Even though it is an empty phrase, it sounds so sophisticated!
With the leaders of the academic and communications world assuming this sneering attitude towards the conspiratorial (or cause and effect) theory of history, it is not surprising that millions of innocent and well-meaning people, in a natural desire not to appear naive, assume the attitudes and repeat the cliches of the opinion makers. These persons, in their attempt to appear sophisticated, assume their mentors' air of smug superiority even though they themselves have not spent five minutes in study on the subject of international conspiracy."~ Gary Allan, None Dare Call it Conspiracy.
God bless,
Nick
Quotable quote:
"Sell your cleverness and purchase bewilderment"~?
And he's the same idiot who said y2k problems would bring about the end of the world. Duh.
http://people.smu.edu/acambre/garynorth/
Here's my modest proposal:
All of the conspiracy theorists are here to discredit this site - It's a conspiracy!
Here here... We said!
"The personal attacks tend to divert attention from the facts which an author or speaker is trying to expose. The idea is to force the person exposing the conspiracy to stop the exposure and spend his time and effort defending himself."
Exactly, that is their only recourse, and hope of muting the information.
and disagreeing with a conspiracy is therefore a conspiracy.
When an argument is reduced to absurdity, and the same case is still made by the same person, where can you go?
To state that Gary North declared that y2k was in essence going to bring down the world and that it was a conspiracy and that he was proven wrong is not a personal attack. The personal attack part is saying that he's an idiot and I should have said that, I should have stayed perfectly factual.
So okay, Gary North made a lot of money spreading conspiracy theories.
And here is his record:
"In 1986, North co-authored with Arthur Robinson Fighting Chance: Ten Feet to Survival, a book advocating a nationwide civil defense program to construct underground shelters protecting US citizens against an anticipated nuclear first strike by the Soviet Union. In 1987, North predicted in Remnant Review that an AIDS epidemic would overwhelm the world's hospitals by 1992.
In the late 1990's, North predicted that Y2K would be a global catastrophe,[2] and promoted his theories in the media and in his Remnant Review newsletter and website. In December 1999 he retracted his position,[citation needed] and in a January 2000 ICE newsletter, he publicly apologized for his mistaken view of Y2K, saying he was baffled as to why the transition didn't bring global chaos."
And a lot of people unquestioningly believed him frankly because a lot of people are gullible, and after one theory is proven wrong, they just turn to the next one.
Look, I don't argue that governments conspire against their citizens, they do. There are instances all through history of where people in power have acted co-jointly with others for personal financial gain and to increase their power. The problem is that we must hold a high standard in determining what those actual criminal activities are, otherwise we will loose any credibility whatsoever. It is as simple as the story of the boy who yelled fire, the point being that there was eventually a fire and no-one believed him.
This site and this movement will never accomplish it's goals nor be taken seriously until we thoroughly and completely sever ourselves from the "9/11 truth movement".
The government is clumsy and inept in everything it attempts. It could not attack an outhouse and keep it secret.
This site and movement are too important to be dragged down by associating with the paranoid and delusional.
that the gov't is clumsy and inept. You're entitled to your opinion, however, have you also considered any of the facts?
Here's one to consider: jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel-- even when mixed with any of the following (human flesh, building materials, office materials, high winds).
That's just a scientific fact - it's one worth considering I think.
It doesn't have to melt, it only has to loose some of its strength. Jet fuel can burn at up to 980 C, at 980 C steel loses 80% of its strength. There were many materials in the building that burn hotter than jet fuel.
Those are scientific facts.
There was molten steel at the site, running freely, days after the attacks occurred. That's in the official record!!!
By the way, What materials were burning hotter than jet fuel?
Then go over to the conspiracy truthers website. Ron said to stop your including him in the truthers movement in on of the debates...he said it doesn't help him.....he is not a truther. But he repects your right to think for yourselves and ask questions. Your not a mouthpiece for the freedom movement.....and you serve your own agenda here....Ron Paul believes that perhaps the Gov't "let" the US be attacked by knowing something was eminate but not doing everything in its power to stop it. But he does not believe they conspired to MAKE it happen.......don't hijack Breakthematrix with this crap-we have too much work to do to save the country then be dragged into this rhetoric....