"I must say Scott, you have more faith than I do. It takes a great deal of faith to believe that the entire universe was created without a Creator, that even if it came to be via some scientific laws we are unaware of, that these laws and this vast empty space that our universe is contained within just happened to always exist without any explanation or Creator, and that a tornado in a junkyard can build a perfectly functioning supercomputer."

Ummm, nobody said there was no explanation. What we humans CAN SAY, i sthat we do not comprehend the explanation, as it is something not easily studied or tested.

As far as the "tornado in a junkyard" argument, what that shows is your lack of understanding as to what has actually transpired. This usually comes from people who made the decision to read an old dusty book rather than the current scientific journals. What you are alluding to is the idea that life happened by "chance" which is not what actually transpired. Life was steered by the simple, incremental process known as evolution, a process which was and is in no way reliant on chance.

Here is a good non-religious video explaining how this occurs using a simple computer model--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWZHqmtmBaE&feature=related

As you can see, evolutionary processes are not random, and highly logical and easy to understand...

"By the way, I hate to burst your bubble, but you most certainly subscribe to a religion too. I assume it is the religion of atheism. Look up the definition of "religion" for yourself, and see if you can explain how your personal system of beliefs related to the origin and order of the universe does not fit the definition of religion."

I find it humorous that those inculcated with a religion have a need to "afix" a religion on those who care not a whit toward worship or "belief".

I don't "not believe in god".

The accurate statement would be, "I do not consider the possibility to have any merit or validity".

The "belief" doesn't "explain" anything, resolve anything, cure anything, or influence the outcome of anything (other than the non-god-like choice humans make, like attending church or praying or traveling to India to convince some poor shmuck to follow Jesus...)

Religous people do what they do because of what they believe, and not because of what is true.

When they gather to stare at the figure of Christ in a piece of toast, for example, it is because they are religious, not because there is a god...

I'd like to see a religion forum category too.

Not because I'm a religious person, but rather so all of the religious/anti religious crap can be maintained in one area, where I can ignore it and get back about the work of restoring Liberty in America.

If you put a noose around the neck of a neo con and put him up on a stool, he'll kick the stool out from under himself because "well for better or for worse I'm already here."

"I have a feeling many of you who do not believe in religion would rather not have this topic,"

Religion is the easiest thing in the world to debate, because there is no basis for the claims it makes for itself. It cannot support itself with facts, logic, or reason. It can only assert something is true and then stand smugly by that assertion even though the assertion is demonstrably untrue. Religion is the proclamations of the absurdly illogical, backed by a history of superstition as its only argumentative support. "It is old" is its only claim of truth that actually is true.

At some point, sadly, I can just cut and paste old statements I've already made until the religious run away screaming for more illusion and wishful comforts...

That is the nature of the argument and the fundamental reality of religion as a claim.

I just returned from burying my birth-mother.

As I watched her slip away and leave this world, I had a distict feeling of a sacred presence in the room. As I held her hand, I learned to let go and give her other hand to God.

I found her 18 years ago, a professional clown full of belly-laughs, love and big bear-hugs. As I sorted her pictures, I noticed she was always hugging children, animals or family. It was an unfortunate incident, the circumstances of my adoption, but I had no resentment and always felt glad that I found her.

Over the past few weeks, I was once again reminded of the gift that this life is and how we are here to fulfill our destiny...each one of us with a distict talent and skills to offer the world. My time left is finite and I wish not to waste it on things which do not serve to move me closer to my purpose.

Upon returning home, I wanted to catch up on what I have missed over the last 3 weeks. The two forums with religious themes caught my eye. I was suprised to see such negative posts on the one and no posts on this forum. Last I knew BTM had about 5000+ members. Where are all the people who believe in God?

I am glad to see this forum topic here amongst all the others. When I left town because of my mother's illness, Rick and the BTM Board had just decided to not censor posts, however, as on many other forums, it was decided that flaming and profanity were not allowed. So, why would some members want to censor posts about God, Jesus, the Spiritual Path, or religion? As long as we are not cramming our beliefs down anyone's throats, discussion on faith are welcomed...especially during these troubled and turbulent times (which I believe will get worse).

I have experienced God/the Holy Spirit/Jesus (Yes, I believe in the Trinity) so many times in my life, there is no doubt that this spark of Divinity resides in me, in you and all around us. I wish I could give that experience to others, but all I can do is talk about my path and try to the best of my ability to live a life that hopefully illuminates what is inside of me. I am a drop of the Ocean, but I am not the Ocean. I always had a problem with the movie "The Secret." It makes us out to be gods, but it leaves out any mention of the key player...THE God.

Humanists would say my birth-mother is dead, in the ground, worm-food. After burying her and my adoptive mother, I know I felt their spirits rise up. They became a part of everything; The wind on my face as I cried my eyes out, the trees, the sky, the heavens-and they both reside with our Father, our Creator, or whatever name you want to call Him.

Our founding fathers had great faith and I believe that I will need ample prayer and guidance from God to heal from the last three weeks and to survive the coming hard times.

Thank you to the creator of this forum (Freedom) and for giving this topic a home.

And thank you God for holding my hand as I said goodbye to the last of my family.

Blessings,

Wind_Dancer