Ron Paul's take on the Fair Tax?
Posted by SkyMarshal on Tue, 04/29/2008 - 20:25 inHas Dr. Paul said or written anything about the Fair Tax proposal?
He's not on its list of co-sponsors:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=news_cosponsor
Dr. Paul is against income taxes, and any other tax he deems unconstitutional, but his writings seemt to attack the subject piecemeal, whereas Fair Tax is a thoroughly researched, comprehensive proposal for tax reform.
I've haven't yet read the two Fair Tax books, but they're on the way from Amazon. However, so far I like the fundamental idea of shifting all tax burden and disincentive from production and saving to consumption, which is one objective of Fair Tax. Curious what Dr. Paul thinks of it.
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Until we control the flow of money into Washington DC, we have no hope of controlling the outflow. The Fair Tax gives the People that control (that's why the politicians don't want it).
Next on my list after getting the Fair Tax passed (so the People can actually SEE what they are paying to the fed gov't), is cutting spending, downsizing gov't and getting rid of the Federal Reserve. If we have enough People to get the Fair Tax passed, we'll have to do the other things.
EVERYTHING revolves around the money.
When I first heard about the Fair Tax I thought it was a good idea. It is better than what we have now, though you could release all thieves from jail and have them go rob people and bring the loot to DC and that would still be better than what we have now so that's not saying much.
I used to listen to Neil Boortz back when he was a libertarian so I got my fill of what it was about, as well as reading the web site.
However, even if (as Boortz says) I don't change the wording before arguing against it there is a major potential for disaster with this tax in the "refund" portion.
The Fair Tax has a sales tax of 30% on everything (I know, 23% if you are comparing it to the Income Tax to keep things fair) and then every US citizen gets a check back, a rebate on the taxes you spent up to poverty level. So if the poverty level for you is $10,000 you get a $3k check from the government every year, split into monthly payments (the exact numbers may be different).
But there's the rub. Even if the tax rate is set in stone and it's Constitutionally locked in somehow...there's wiggle room in what is deemed "poverty level". Poverty level is determined by a government agency, who's to say they won't raise the poverty level to the point where we have a full on Marxist redistribution of wealth? Poverty levels being set to $100,000 a year...everyone gets paid $30k a year by the government. A society that Stalin would be proud of.
Our current Income Tax started as a 1% tax on the super rich of the country. Don't put it past politicians to pervert something for their own gain.
Well said, Elwar -- that's exactly WHY we need to get rid of the current taxing system and go to The Fair Tax.
You said: "who's to say they won't raise the poverty level to the point where we have a full on Marxist redistribution of wealth?"
--We're nearly there already; somethin's gotta give.
www. OperationOffTheFence.org
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=news_presScorecard
"I'll vote for the FairTax if it comes up because I have made a promise that I will do anything to get rid of the income tax and the IRS, and repeal the 16th amendment and that FairTax certainly moves it in that direction."
Though I do believe this would be accepted as a short-term option to fully repealing all tax laws and abolishing the IRS...
it would be accepted as a short-term option, "DeltaRho2K". The corrupt Congress has had the Fairy Tax waiting in the wings for many years; it's a sucker-punch. It's a 'revenue-neutral' scam that would keep the DC al-Qaeda just as huge and flabby as it is now.
It would also be harder to rid ourselves of, and MUCH worse than the present IRS debacle.
What most people don't understand is that the Tax Code is just fine as it is. If you think it's not, then please point out a specific section of the Code that you think is bad, and why you think it's bad. I've studied the Tax Code for a decade, and I think it's a palpably devious, intentionally byzantine law that does NOT APPLY to most Americans, unless they self-assess and sign things under penalty of perjury without the slightest idea why they are doing so, other than they are terrorized by the IRS.
From the perspective of a law-abiding Nontaxpayer who studies the Tax Code and obeys the laws, we can leave the IRS and the Tax Code alone. The Fairy Tax would be MUCH worse. Just because you are scared of your public servants, and just because you pay over 1/3 of your substance without even knowing the law that supposedly requires it, doesn't mean that we 67 million Nontaxpayers and non-filers want to start paying a 25% sales tax for your ignorance and Congress' cunning!
A national sales tax is very attractive to most Americans, because most Americans attended government schools, and have always considered "the government authorities" to be right...even though they are proven liars, so very often.
Read the Tax Code. Go to the Dave Champion Show (online radio show at www.davechampionshow.com) and click on the archives, study whatever subject you like. Or go to his precursor program at www.americanradioshow.us where there are years of archived programs, walking you through the corrupt Congress' maze of smoke and mirrors.
Or go to my Introduction to Tax Honesty article, the top article on my American Glasnost blog http://www.americanglasnost.blogspot.com and this will provide a foundation for further study, and links to the better books that present tax law, rulings, Congressional Record entries, etc. -- NOT theories or silly, dangerous 'silver bullets'.
If Americans fall for the Fairy Tax, we will go from the frying pan into the fire. Like Ron Paul, I want federal revenues to be slashed deeply enough to restrict the federal government to its lawful scope and powers. That means the Nontaxpayer population must become about 50% larger than it is today.
We should LEAVE the IRS and the Tax Code alone; the IRS staff will shrink drastically when Tax Honesty goes to scale.
I didn't say whether I agreed with it or not, so you don't need to defend the IRS or decry the merits of the Fair Tax Act... I'm still learning about it myself... Oh, and it's OK to not quote my screen name. I really do exist. lol ;-)
at all, actually. Some employees of the 'Service' are pretty nice folks who think they're doing God's good work for America, but they're just ignorant of law and history.
All I'm saying is that the Fairy Tax would be much WORSE than the present scheme, which would likely not be dismantled when the Fairy comes home to roost anyway. You'd end up with BOTH.
Don't fall for the Fairy Tax.
Marshacat,
You said,
Before you start posting meaninless [sic] rebuttles, [sic] educate yourself.
Heh...nobody likes a hypocrite, but I just love irony.
Please see my article about the "Fairy Tax" on my American Glasnost blog site http://www.american-glasnost.blogspot.com blog, and then let's come back here and see who is uneducated, 'kay?
A. Taromina has concisely covered the major flaws in the national sales tax plan, which is equally disastrous with a 'flat tax'.
Every single constitutional (lawful) power of federal government can be more than funded by lawful taxation: federal excises, customs duties, import tariffs, corporate taxation, and taxation of privileged activites covered in the Tax Code (alcohol, tobacco, firearms, merchant shipping, etc). The approximately $1,000,000,000,000 collected in individual income taxes presently goes to debt service on the federal government's promissory notes to the Federal Reserve counterfeiting scheme.
But that scheme is illegal (the Federal Reserve Act and all Legal Tender laws that are repugnant to the Constitution are legal nullities; illegal) so we could stop that tomorrow, and leave the IRS and Tax Code just as they are without all this political jockeying, and individual 'Taxpayer' Americans would be as free as I am...as free as the other 60+ million nonfilers are today.
If you remain stuck on stupid because you've never even seen a copy of the Tax Code, that's your own fault. If you want to believe the PR publications of the IRS, rather than the law itself, that's just fine. You're a terror victim, not an educated citizen; and the Tax Fairy won't save you.
First thing to do for your education: read the history of the American colonies with respect to taxation by the British crown and parliament, ca. 1680-1780. You will notice that the impetus for our forging a new republic among the nations of the world was that as productive people in a productive new land, we were tired of dragging a huge bureaucracy and monarchy around on its fat derriere.
America was a free republic; a meritocracy with only a TINY tax burden. The founders would roll over in their graves at the idea of flat taxes or "Fair" sales taxes that are (at lowest estimates) five times higher than the sales taxes that led them to spark the American Revolution.
Physician, heal thyself.
dmzuniga said:
"Every single constitutional (lawful) power of federal government can be more than funded by lawful taxation: federal excises, customs duties, import tariffs, corporate taxation, and taxation of privileged activites covered in the Tax Code (alcohol, tobacco, firearms, merchant shipping, etc). The approximately $1,000,000,000,000 collected in individual income taxes presently goes to debt service on the federal government's promissory notes to the Federal Reserve counterfeiting scheme."
The IRS collects about 2.5 trillion each year, which goes into the general fund which the goes toward paying the 3.2 trillion budget. Federal excises, customs, duties, import tariffs, corporate taxation, and taxes from ATF activities is not enough to replace the 2.5 trillion the IRS collects. Yes, we must downsize the fed gov't, but not even Dr. Paul could do that overnight enough for us to get by on just those taxes. We the People have stood by too long and allowed gov't to grow. We need a transparent, constitutional tax NOW; the clock is ticking.
Federal excises, customs, duties, import tariffs, and corporate taxation are indeed constitutional, but are HIDDEN taxes that cascade down to we the People and we pay them, without a choice in the matter.
I'd rather pay a TRANSPARENT Constitutional tax IF I choose to do so, which opportunity I will have with the Fair Tax.
I think you're in the wrong meeting here, Marsha.
You said: The IRS collects about 2.5 trillion each year, which goes into the general fund which the goes toward paying the 3.2 trillion budget. Federal excises, customs, duties, import tariffs, corporate taxation, and taxes from ATF activities is not enough to replace the 2.5 trillion the IRS collects.
WHO is talking about "replacing" Leviathan with an EQUALLY FAT Leviathan, Marsha? I guess you're one of those on this site that's new to the Ron Paul message. I suggest you go back and read some of Rep. Paul's stuff; maybe even buy his last two books.
"Revenue Neutral" sounds like your bag. That's newspeak for "Let's keep raping and pillaging! Porkfest, porkfest!!"
Every power that we gave to federal government in the US Constitution can be funded with about $400 billion to $700 billion annually (depending on whose version of 'necessary and proper' you adopt). So let's see about the math...
$3,200,000,000,000 minus $550,000,000,000 (using the average) leaves $2,650,000,000,000 in pork, fraud, waste, and other unconstitutional (aka ILLEGAL!) powers, programs, etc.
I seriously doubt that Ron Paul ever suggested he'd support a 'revenue neutral' scam like the Fairy Tax.
1. Dr. Paul stated that he would indeed sign the Fair Tax Act as president after its passage by Congress.
2. Dr. Paul stated that he would vote FOR the Fair Tax Act as a Congressman should it come to the floor for a vote.
3. The Fair Tax Act is simply an unamended Consitutional Tax (the indirect uniform tax in Article 1 SEction 8) -- totally transparent and totally voluntary.
4. The Fair Tax Act elinimates ALL tax on income, thereby eliminating our confiscatory taxing mechanism.
5. The Fair Tax returns power to the People as it is a consumption tax (the prebate makes it NOT regressive and provides choice) -- Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 21 states that a consumption tax is a self-regulating tax: if the rate gets too high, the people back off of spending their money on taxable stuff; the people begin to spend again when the rate is acceptable. If we want to opt out of funding the gov't, we can do so by adjusting our spending (without fear of the gestapo).
6. Virtually all politicians (Ron Paul excepted) are NOT fans of the Fair Tax because it will greatly diminish their power to socially engineer the People through the tax code.
7. Under the Fair Tax, prices will stay about the same as they are now even with the Fair Tax added on, because once the corporate tax is done away with, competition will ensure that prices reflect the reduced costs of the manufacturers, middlemen, and retailers, who are no longer forced to base business decisions on a tax code, but, rather, on their product and customers (like it was for 124 years prior to 1913). For those who think competition won't do this, take a look around now.
8. Anyone who wants the "flat tax" endorses the present confiscatory taxing mechanism, perpetuates the power of those who can afford to buy lobbyists and loopholes and hide their income through corporations and trusts (as that all remains intact with the flat tax), and either does not understand, or has no use for, the power of our Constitution. That is why you will see politicians openly supporting the "flat tax" measure -- they have nothing to lose, and the People have nothing to gain.
9. Before you start posting meaninless rebuttles, educate yourself -- www.OperationOffTheFence.org.
Yes, let's do that.
1) "Marshacat", what is your relationship to the Fairy Tax website you keep pushing? Do you receive a salary or other form of income from that site?
2) do you REALLY think that the American citizens can afford for the federal Leviathan to remain its current size for much longer?
Thanks in advance for setting the record straight.
I don't have the link handy but in a radio interview some months ago Dr. Paul stated that he wasn't very familiar with the specifics of the Fair Tax proposal but may support it if it did away with the IRS and there was a provision to repeal the 16th Amendment (not likely) along with decreased federal spending, etc, etc. Having done quite a bit of research into the fair tax (reading through the legislation) I can't imagine he would actually support it if it came to a vote (again, not likely) and he reviewed it in detail.
you will see that the question is asked and answered in the original post
i quote the question:
"Has Dr. Paul said or written anything about the Fair Tax proposal?"
and I quote the answer
"He's not on its list of co-sponsors"
I believe the poster wanted to hear the thoughts of others and wanted to know what Ron has said about it. I don't think he has to co-sponsor a bill to say anything about it. In fact he has written about it.
Here is the best article I could find:
Taxes, Spending, and Debt Are the Real Issues by Ron Paul
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." ~Voltaire
I Talked to Ron Paul and he is NOT in favor of this terrible tax. Fair tax is a regressive tax, and I am opposed to both progressive and regressive taxes as they are both immoral, flat tax is moral because it doesn't tax anyone differently, every pitches in their equal percentage. Fair tax is harder on the poor because they consume the majority of their income, so nearly every dime they earn is taxed mroe than everyone elses. The rich consume only a small percentage of their overall income therefore percentage wise they are hardly taxed at all. I do not like any tax, but an unfair tax like this "Fair tax" is immoral and downright stupid. Flat tax is the way to go.
You and Ron were apparently NOT discussing THE Fair Tax -- it is day as an income tax is night. It is NOT regressive, not harder on the poor. Right now, the poor are nailed to the wall -- they are taxed on every dime they earn, and every dime they spend. I have heard Ron make a couple of comments on TV about the Fair Tax which make it clear that (as much as I admire and respect him) he does not understand it fully.
The flat tax is still an income tax -- still an unconstitutional confiscatory (gun-to-your-head) taxing mechanism. The Fair Tax will give everyone choice of if, when, and how much tax they pay based on how they spend their money.
www.OperationOffTheFence.org.
Dr. Paul advocates elimination of income tax and corresponding cuts in federal spending. Cutting federal revenue and spending will diminish the power of the federal government.
The "Fair Tax" replaces income tax with a value added tax, perpetuating federal power in several ways:
While it might be argued that the "Fair Tax" is better than the current income tax, it is still a tax, still overfeeds a gluttonous, intrusive and unproductive federal government, and perhaps worst of all, creates an entirely new welfare program. This cure could well be worse than the illness.
Dr Paul has said explicitly and repeatedly that a complete and total elimination of the federal income tax would require the federal government to scale back its budget...all the way to 1997 levels. As always, he reminds people that you cannot cut taxes (or eliminate them completely) without at the same time cutting spending - otherwise you perpetuate the current system of deficit spending which encourages the fed to print money out of thin air so the Congress can spend it. This in turn causes the hidden tax of inflation and devalues the dollar. Which is exactly
what is going on right now.
So I can see no circumstance in which Dr Paul would support a fair tax, a flat tax, a national (and very high) uniform sales tax, etc...
"The truth is treason in the empire of lies." Dr. Ron Paul, Preface, The Revolution: A Manifesto, p. x
I think Dr Paul stated he liked the "Flat tax". I believe the exact quote was:
"Well, I like the idea of a flat tax, I mean REALLY flat, like ZERO."
There isn't a lot of compromise in the good Doctor. He knows that giving up a little good to get something that isn't too bad is a fool's bargain.
You will never get back what you gave up and you will never be able to hold on to what little you have. Once you give in to something wrong, it is easier to give in to something a little bit more wrong the next time.
"Liberty means responsibility, that is why most men dread it."
-George Bernard Shaw
The "Fair Tax" should only be considered after the Sixteenth Amendment is rescinded. It is still a bad idea and I suspect Dr. Paul would vote against it, but without repealing the Sixteenth Amendment we would unfortunately eventually end up with both a national sales tax and the income tax.
Abolish the Fed!
I think he said he would vote for it because it is a step in the right direction (getting rid of the irs)
Dr. Paul has said repeatedly that he would replace the IRS with . . . . nothing
"Fair" Tax?! That's almost as much of an abuse of our language as the 'peacekeeper' missle or the 'Patriot' act!