Claire I'd ask you to keep in mind that many of the values that we consider American, came in to this nation one the backs of immigrant populations. The same can be said of many of the negative aspects of American life. Part of being a free and open society is taking the good with the bad. Time weeds the good from the bad.

I think we need to understand what is good and right about our culture, and what sets it apart from other cultures: our sense of individualism, of the inalienable rights of the person, our curiosity about nature, the way we value science, our energy and entrepreneurial spirit, our embrace of free markets, tolerance of diverse beliefs on one hand, and the separation of church and state on the other. All these values are hallmarks of American culture. They are what has made this country great in the past, and continue to make it one of the best places in the world to live. Millions of immigrants will attest to this.

Multiculturalism, if it would force us to accept the legitimacy of values that are contrary to these, is very harmful, in my opinion. It erodes our great American culture in the name of tolerance, and will, if it is allowed to flourish, end up destroying the very tolerance it depends on, leaving who knows what garbage in its place.

I wish that those who would tolerate oppressive religions or ideologies in the name of multiculturalism would wake up to this fact, and embrace without shame those values that have made us who WE are.

Just for fun, I volunteer to argue the nationalist side.

While there are many good points well taken in the original article here and in the responses about the diminished importance of nationalism in America, and the bad extremes to which nationalism can be taken I do not think that it has been presented wholly accurately.

To understand what nationalism is, you must first understand the concept of the nation. So what is a nation? Well the United States of America is probably not a nation. What it was originally designed to be, was a kind of close association of more or less independent states, an open framework with only a few common ends, such as defense, trade harmony and a common view of rights. In other words, a confederacy, or a treaty organization.

Many other modern states are not nations as well. The United Kingdom is not, and has historically not been a nation, It is a government that rules over several lands and different peoples. France may arguably not be a nation. Iraq may never have been a nation. These are all states, districts of land under a certain government.

So what IS a nation? That can be harder to explain, but one example might be an Indian tribe, or diaspora Jews, Gypsies or the Amish. These are extreme examples of people without a land under their own rule, but who share a common language, a common culture, a religion their own version of history, and who have had a continuity alongside of, within, between, or separate from states.

A nation and a state can be one and the same. Hawaii before it was annexed may be an example, or Portugal or Iceland. It is not often that the geographic borders of a state correspond to the area where people share the close bonds of a nation.

States often include parts of several nations, as Iraq with both Kurds and Arabs of different Muslim sects. Nations often include people who live in various states. A key idea in international politics in recent years has been that people of a nation should be able to rule themselves instead of being ruled by a government with a majority that has a different ethnicity or religion.

To embrace and wish to promote your culture, language, religion or ethnicity is to embrace nationalism. To seek independence for your tribe from rule by foreign power is to embrace nationalism. Nationalism does not always imply scapegoating people of other nationalities or ethnicities, that is a historical accident that is being generalized into a law with little justification.

Nationalism probably stands opposed to things like open-border policies, and multiculturalism.

It may be that both open legal frameworks that protect rights, the the US constitution, and nationalism, like Pennsylvania Amish, Mennonite or Quaker communities, are both important. One provides you with protection to believe whatever you want and the freedom to make your own way in the world, the other provides you with something to believe in, a close community, a sense of brotherhood, help in hard times and a moral education that the officers of the open framework should never be trusted with the power to give you.

If you want to read further, I suggest that Wikipedia's entries on State, Nation, Nationalism and such are probably of good quality. And I would also suggest you seek out videos by and discussions with the likes of The Southern Avenger and Paleocrat on youtube.

I might also mention that other issues that complicate what a nation is include that a religion may be shared between two people, as with the church of Rome, or a language, but not a religion, as with the division between Catholic and Protestant Irish. Also, ethnicity is more important to some cultures than others.

You are correct, and the Germans recognize this to a fault. So attuned to the correct arguments made on this thread, that they have brought up their children to abhor any sign of nationalism. I was in Hamburg during the World Cup, and really understood this for the first time. The sad part of it is that many young Germans of today feel a little guilty about WHO THEY ARE, merely because of this deeply ingrained suspicion of national pride. I was a little saddened to discover this in my friends there, who are among the finest people I have ever met, as are the German people of today. It seems that they have overcompensated for the fact that they happen to have ancestors that went' temporarily insane, which we all have, if you go back in history far enough.

Tom Mullen

www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs

George Bush addressing the nation with the fashi, the bundle of sticks and a sickle in the bg should tell you something, but sadly most people do not see what is right under their nose...

Bush's inauguration speech might have well of been Hitler addressing the nation since his speech was almost identical to one made by Hitler directly after the burning of the Reichstag's, a false flag black operation to convince the sheeple there was a battle to be won.

Blind Nationalism is a real threat. Do you realise how many people would vote bush back in given half a chance? tooooooooo many.

The United States is founded on one of the finest documents ever penned, the Constitution of the United States, second only the the declaration of independence.

The constitution is all about the individual. You are a sovereignty in your own right according to the constitution, where does nationalism come into that? As a citizen of the United States you are in effect your own King or Queen which was deliberate actions to avoid having a monarchy.

You are also obliged to defend YOUR sovereignty from foreign invaders, including federal government.

Nationalism has no place in the USA because the USA was never setup to be a nation, it was setup to represent the individual nation states. Countries in their own right. You subscribe to nationalism and you are defying your own constitution and are therefor a traitor I think.

They can rally up the nationalism tree all they want. They're going to lose. BTM, and so many other sites, along with more and more people turning to the internet for their news, more and more truth is leaking through their "nationalism" seive everyday, and will soon be sufficiently strong to burst a floodgate.

__________________
Freedom is an inside job

I wrote a piece about ISMS, and Nationalism is right on the top of the "bad" list. Hitler used Nationalism as well as Stalin, to motivate his murderous minions.

Nationalism is dangerous, as it is a gigantic form of tribalism, whereby those outside the tribe are "suspect" and "the enemy", and those inside are granted tolerance to bad behavior, because they are "one of us".

This is one of the uglier forms of human behavior (although it makes for good television-- hordes of fat and drunk Americans yelling "We're number one!" over and over in a sports stadium).