Indigo & Crystal Children: Dr. Doreen Virtue
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQAd3FxKVUY
Type of Content: Video This is an 8 part set of Youtube videos taken from a Coast to Coast broadcast. The description of Indigo children reminds me of many people in the R3VOLUTION. I have been looking into them and am finding a lot of interesting information on them. One thing I found really neat was the thought that these children were the next step in human evolution. I would love to see what the Break the Matrix community thinks of this. If you are interested in the rest of the videos, you can find them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpx4X8I_4E Indigo Children Characteristics INDIGO CHILDREN * Have strong self esteem, connection to source * Know they belong here until they are told otherwise * Have an obvious sense of self * Have difficulty with discipline and authority * Refuse to follow orders or directions * Find it torture to waiting in lines, lack patience * Get frustrated by ritual-oriented systems that require little creativity * Often see better ways of doing thing at home and at school * Are mostly nonconformists * Do not respond to guilt trips, want good reasons * Get bored rather easily with assigned tasks * Are rather creative * Are easily distractible, can do many things at once * Display strong intuition * Have strong empathy for others or NO empathy * Develop abstract thinking very young * Are gifted and/or talented, highly intelligent * Are often identified or suspected of having ADD or ADHD, but can focus when they want to * Are talented daydreamers and visionaries * Have very old, deep, wise looking eyes * Have spiritual intelligence and/or psychic skills * Often express anger outwardly rather than inwardly and may have trouble with rage * Need our support to discover themselves * Are here to change the world - to help us live in greater harmony and peace with one another and to raise the vibration of the planet ~by Wendy H. Chapman Read »
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by invoking a reference to Ayn Rand here.
With a day to reflect on it, I would strike these characteristics from the list of traits a Randian character would have
* Know they belong here until they are told otherwise
* Have spiritual intelligence and/or psychic skills
* Need our support to discover themselves
* Are here to change the world - to help us live in greater harmony and peace with one another and to raise the vibration of the planet
and maybe
* Refuse to follow orders or directions
I agree that Rand would not have any patience for mystical nonsense.
I do not think Indigo children are proto-objectivists
Neither do I dismiss them outright.
Fortunately I went through my "Ayn Rand phase" early in my life - from about 19 to 23 years of age. By the time the objectivist movement became ugly I had moved on to my Austrian phase (which I am still in). It was tough going from being steeped in objectivist thought and then finding myself on a collision course with "subjective value theory."
Then, in 1984, I found Nathaniel Branden's essay The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand.
here are some cogent excepts
1. No doubt every thinker has to be understood, at least in part, in terms of what the thinker is reacting against, that is, the historical context in which the thinker’s work begins. Ayn Rand was born in Russia: a mystical country in the very worst sense of the word, a country that never really passed through the Age of Reason or the Enlightenment in the way that Western Europe did. Ayn Rand herself was not only a relentless rationalist, she was profoundly secular, profoundly in love with this world, in a way that I personally can only applaud. Yet the problem is that she became very quick on the draw in response to anything that even had the superficial appearance of irrationalism, by which I mean, of anything that did not fit her particular understanding of 'the reasonable.
2. Like many other people, she was enormously opposed to any consideration of the possible validity of telepathy, ESP, or other psi phenomenon. The evidence that was accumulating to suggest that there was something here at least worthy of serious scientific study did not interest her; she did not feel any obligation to look into the subject; she was convinced it was all a fraud. It did not fit her model of reality. When an astronaut attempted during a flight to the moon to conduct a telepathic experiment, she commented on the effort with scorn—even the attempt to explore the subject was contemptible in her opinion. Now I have no wish to argue, in this context, for or against the reality of nonordinary forms of awareness or any other related phenomenon. That is not my point. My point is the extent to which she had a closed mind on the subject, with no interest in discovering for herself why so many distinguished scientists had become convinced that such matters are eminently worthy of study.
3. Ayn Rand might turn over in her grave to hear me say it, but she really did have the right to be wrong sometimes. No need for us to become hysterical about it or to behave like petulant eight-year-olds. Growing up means being able to see our parents realistically. Growing up relative to Ayn Rand means being able to see her realistically—to see the greatness and to see the shortcomings. If we see only the greatness and deny the shortcomings or if we see only the shortcomings and deny the greatness, we remain blind.
Much of education is learning about what other people think.
After this I became more comfortable with what I think.
Read the full essay here - The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand
It was Branden's book The Psychology of Self Esteem that put me on to Rand and saved me from becoming an ardent leftist - but that is a can of worms to open another day.
I can't claim to have first hand knowledge other than that - I'd have to agree with Nathaniel's general thesis with regard to Ayn Rand in regard to some specific applications of her philosophy - such as her opinions in regard to homosexuality, her view that a woman's proper position romantically was as a man worshipper, and many others as discussed in Branden's essay. Still, we should not forget that the most outstandingly powerful and efficacious female characters in fiction are hers - Dagny in Atlas and Dominique in Fountainhead. But just as The Fountainhead was an overture to Atlas Shrugged, Dominique was an overture to Dagny. Here, for the first time in history, is woman realized to her full potential in the world of action. No wonder the scramble to portray her in the forthcoming movie - a role won by Angelina Jolie. As for the fundamental principles of her philosophy, I'd have to say that insomuch as I understand them, I agree with them. Even though the volume of her work is small compared to many, the grand sweep of her ideas and her attempt to systematize vast areas of knowledge is remarkable. Some of her work might have been derivative, or coincidentally similar, such as her theory of contextual certainty, but some, as far as I know, is fully her own - in particular her explanation of volition and her elucidation of a rationally derived morality. What I will suggest is that Objectivism is a philosophical system worth knowing - it is a powerful force against irrationalism and for freedom.
Some of her essays, especially in "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal", powerfully influenced the culture on the right even though she received little or no credit. In particular, the schooling in her essay on the "Anatomy of Compromise", is evident in the actions of both Reagan and Thatcher - their uncompromising unwillingness to concede morality to the left and to communism changed the shape of the modern world - without a war. The Berlin wall was felled by an idea. It would do this movement well to go back and read it - before this revolution is over, we will need it. I see no great contradiction between the works of von Mises and Rand, except in regard to whether a value is subjective (for von Mises), or objective (for Rand) - a lot of their difference lies in a reconcilable contextual difference on the meaning of value.
As for your 'moving from a Rand phase to a von Mises phase', why would you need to do that? Their differences in terms of essentials are minimal. There is nothing contradictory in being an adherent of both.
Perhaps this posting from the Ludwig von Mises Institute website will help:
To What Extent Was Rand a Misesian?
Daily Article by Bettina Bien Greaves | Posted on 4/11/2005
This year marks the 100th anniversary of Ayn Rand's birth. Her books sold in the millions and were most effective in transforming a generation of readers into ardent anti-communists and strong capitalists. There is also a connection between the Austrian School and Rand, as shown by a new symposium from The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies (Spring 2005) entitled "Ayn Rand Among the Austrians."
This is a collection of scholarly papers by some of her most serious students. If we may generalize from their conclusions, it is this: though Rand calls herself an Objectivist, and appears to reject important aspects of Austrian economics—apriorism and subjective value theory—and claims that a scientific ethics may be derived from an individual's right to life, Ayn Rand was essentially an Austrian and a Misesian. The contributors to this volume give insight into Rand's principles and offer reasons for reconciling Rand's Objectivism with Mises's subjectivism.
One important message in the writings of both Ludwig von Mises and Henry Hazlitt, is that ideas had consequences, and that the future of freedom will depend on an improved understanding of free market ideas. "Rand picked up that challenge and attempted to provide economic enlightenment to her readers through the story of Atlas Shrugged." (Boettke, 452) During his years of teaching, Peter J. Boettke frequently used the book as a teaching tool, comparing the economic ideas it taught with those in John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath.
In his contribution to this volume, "Teaching Economics Through Ayn Rand: How the Economy is like a Novel and How the Novel Can Teach Us About Economics," Boettke writes that Atlas "details the benefits from voluntary exchange, the importance of a sound monetary standard, and the role of individual initiative and creativity as the engine of economic progress. (447) Rand's work highlights the importance of private property rights in providing incentives, the mutually beneficial aspects of exchange, and exalts the human achievement of innovation and wealth creation." (451) "Rand makes the very important point that the critique of socialism was never against rational planning per se. Rather the question was who was to do the planning and the scope and the scale of the planning proposed." (459–60) Rand "communicates to her readers within the context of a beautifully constructed story the basic insight concerning the perverse incentives of collectivism, the inability to engage in rational economic calculation without private property, the law of unintended consequences in interventionism, and the interest-group logic of political capitalism." (446)
When Mises read Atlas Shrugged, he was so impressed by her criticism of bureaucrats that he wrote her a "fan letter": Atlas was "not merely a novel. It is also—or may I say first of all—a cogent analysis of the evils that plague our society, a substantiated rejection of the ideology of our self-styled 'intellectuals' and a pitiless unmasking of the insincerity of the policies adopted by governments and political parties. It is a devastating exposure of the 'moral cannibals,' the 'gigolos of science' and of the 'academic prattle' of the makers of the 'anti-industrial revolution.' You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you." (Reisman, 356)
In his massive treatise, Capitalism, George Reisman attempted to synthesize the teachings of Rand, Mises, and Ricardo. Here he deals with only one point. According to Reisman, Mises's "support of 'utilitarianism' and his efforts to make the case for capitalism in terms of its utility. . . . does indeed meet the test of Man's life as the standard." Therefore, Mises and Rand are in agreement on "Man's life as the standard of value." (253) And Reisman gives Mises credit for "defending the most important of all objective [italics added] values—the individual's freedom." (255)
Walter Block discusses three subjects Rand deals with in Atlas Shrugged—antitrust regulation of business, money, and government. Her stands on all three are staunchly "Austrian." Although Rand "has not a single solitary good word to say about business regulation, antitrust, or any other such government interference with the marketplace," (260) she does point out that "The attempts to obtain special economic privileges from the government were begun by . . . businessmen who shared the intellectuals' view of the state as an instrument of 'positive' power, serving the 'public good'." (261) Francisco d'Anconia's speech on money, Block says, is "a little gem of a lecture"; it shows that "money is the life-blood of an economy, and that gold is a form of money that has traditionally functioned free of deleterious government constraint."
As to government, Block points out that "there is ambivalence on minarchism and anarchism both within Rand and Mises." However, "[o]n the overwhelming majority of other such issues, ranging from welfare to economic regulation to fairness and justice, they [Rand and Mises] are as alike as two peas in a pod." (266)
Ayn Rand was reportedly proud when a former member of her "inner circle," Alan Greenspan, was appointed as President Ford's chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors. And his role as Fed chairman is ironic given that as an acolyte of Rand's in 1967, he had written: "[G]old and economic freedom are inseparable . . . [U]nder the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the director of an economy's stability, central banks cause positive harm." (274–75) Since then, according to Larry Sechrest, Fed Chairman Greenspan has faithfully pursued the Fed's obligations as a central bank—to act as a "lender of last resort" and as the monopoly issuer of legal currency—both of which "actually increase the instability of the banking system." (286) If Rand were living today, would she still be proud of her association with Greenspan?
Roderick T. Long, in "Praxeology: Who Needs It?" discusses Misesian praxeology and its features Rand found objectionable—its apriorism, its value subjectivism, and its claims to motivational psychology. (311) Long claims Rand is as much of an apriorist as Mises (303) as she accepts "the validation of axioms by showing them to be presupposed in their very denials"—a "form of reasoning that most philosophers would likewise call a priori." (303) And, as "all action involves the application of means to achieve desired ends," (308), are they not psychologically motivated? And what are desired ends but personal, subjectively-valued ends? On these points, says Long, Rand and Mises appear to be "in perfect agreement."
According to Rand, life itself is an objective value. "Life can be kept in existence only by a constant process of self-sustaining action. . . . An organism's life is its standard of value." (318) Richard C. B. Johnson reconciles the controversy over subjective vs. objective values by defining two distinct roles for ethics and economics. "[T]he science of economics should focus on trying to find objective economic principles, but in doing so should avoid the ethical dimension, leaving it to the science of philosophy. This seems only to be possible by treating the ultimate ends . . . of people as given—they might as well be totally subjective—and instead study the means by which people try to reach their ends. Making this distinction would keep the economic science objective as well, i.e., wertfrei, just as Mises claims. And values of ultimate ends still could be objective, as well as those of means, perfectly in accordance with Rand." (330)
Edward W. Younkins writes about "Menger, Mises, Rand, and Beyond." In attempting to reconcile Rand's objectivist position on value with Mises's subjectivism, he sees Menger as the link. (361) Rand like Menger considers man's life as the ultimate value. "Although Menger speaks of economic value while Rand is concerned with moral value, their ideas are essentially the same. . . . Objective values support man's life and originate in a relationship between him and his survival requirements. . . . Values are linked to life and moral values are linked to human life." (358–59) "Misesian economics focuses on the descriptive aspects of human action by offering reasoning about means and ends . . . . Means only have value to the degree that their ends are valued." (362)
In his paper "Two Worlds at Once: Rand, Hayek, and the Ethics of the Micro- and Macro-cosmos," Steven Horwitz describes the conflict between the ethics that prevailed among our ancestors when they lived in a close-knit society and the ethics which is appropriate to today's far-ranging, highly specialized, division of labor economy. According to Hayek, "[O]ur evolutionary ancestors largely existed in small bands living on the edge of survival. In such groups, devotion to the group and agreement on collective ends was central to survival." With the development of agriculture and improved means of transportation a market-based economy evolved. Those who sought profit through exchange were then able to benefit themselves directly, and their groups indirectly. (380) "A variety of institutions, including money, language, the law, and markets can be understood as spontaneous orders. . . . The modern industrial market society is thus a spontaneous order" which has emerged as people followed "evolved rules of just conduct." (381) Hayek sees these evolving rules of just conduct as paralleling the process which "lawyers and judges face in codifying the evolved common law; they are not inventing law, they are codifying what history has shown to work. . . . Given that the rules of morality are, in Hayek's view, an example of a complex spontaneous order that could not be designed ahead of time, those sets of rules that emerge out of social evolutionary processes gain a presumption of appropriateness." (388–89) Life in such a spontaneous order market society involves relationships "among anonymous others," rather than "face-to-face" interactions. (382) "[A]n exchange-based society enables us to serve each other's needs (i.e., cooperate) without needing to know much at all about each other." (382) "[W]e must constantly adjust our lives, our thoughts and our emotions, in order to live simultaneously within different kinds of orders according to different rules." (384) "[T]o understand that the self-interested behavior of the market and extended order should be seen as morally praiseworthy . . . Rand's ethical system might fill in this gap." (387)
Hayek was not one of Rand's favorite persons. However, Horwitz quotes Hayek in support of Rand's portrayal of wealth production as ethical, moral: "The morals of the market do lead us to benefit others, not by our intending to do so, but by making us act in a manner which, nonetheless, will have just that effect. . . . [T]here can be no doubt that most of those who have built up great fortunes in the form of new industrial plants and the like have thereby benefited more people through creating opportunities for more rewarding employment than if they had given their superfluity away to the poor." (386–87)
Horwitz also compares the contrasting views of Rand and Hayek on the family. Rand "sees the family as an institution that more often than not encourages the collectivism and altruism that she opposes." (389) "For Hayek, the key function of the family is as one of the central cultural institutions by which the rules of just conduct are transmitted across generations." (391) "Hayek saw in the ethical systems of the twentieth century the danger that they were inappropriately attempting to extend the collectivism and altruism of the family to the broader order, but he might well have seen precisely the opposite danger in the Randian ethical system: the inappropriate extension of the extended order's ethics to intimate groupings." (399)
Candice E. Jackson's "Our Unethical Constitution" shows how Rand's reasoning from the thesis that an individual has "one fundamental right: the right of each person to his own life (406), and Rothbard's ethics which "begins with natural law and places a carefully defined concept of property rights at the center" (409) both "arrive at virtually identical fundamental principles of political ethics. . . . the individual rights ethics." (415)
However, neither Rand nor Rothbard look on the Constitution as a guide to ideal limited government. "The American colonists were more concerned with rule by consent of the public as opposed to [rule by] hereditary monarch, than with substantive limits on government qua government. . . . [T]he Constitution focused little on constraining government qua government or protecting individual rights, and instead frame the issue as a structural choice between many State government loosely confederated, or a truly national government." (423, 425) "[T]he lack of articulated political ethical principles to support the mechanics of the Constitution," therefore, "dooms the Constitution to perennial failure as a foundational document for a genuinely free and ethical society." (427)
Also in this issue of Ayn Rand Studies is an exchange between Leland B. Yeager whose The Moral Philosophy of Social Cooperation, William Thomas reviewed in the Spring of 2004. Although Thomas says he and Yeager are substantially in agreement, Thomas criticizes Yeager's utilitarianism, and "defends Rand's rejection of ethical altruism against criticisms that it represents a 'corner solution' or an unrealistic slippery-slope argument." (480)
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Bettina Bien Greaves [mail] attended Ludwig von Mises's New York University seminar, compiled Mises: An Annotated Bibliography, and also edited several collections of articles. She received the Schlarbaum Prize in 2002. You can comment on this article at the Mises Economics Blog.
http://www.mises.org/story/1790
This is a ways off the original thread of Indigo & Crystal Children - and I think that is a good thing.
I am familiar with many of the references you cite. I have a large collection of Objectivist and Austrian newsletters and magazines from years past which I need to organize someday. I read Mises.org regularly. I have read the Mises fan letter. I know of Bettina Bien (and Percy) Greaves work from FEE. I have seen but not bought Boettke's book, but I enjoy his writing.
It makes perfect sense for me to say I went from an "Ayn Rand" phase to an "Austrian phase." Having read as much as I could by or about Rand, I was ready to move on. Much of what I read came from the bibliography of Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal. There were other reasons, too.
I remember going to discussion groups and meeting dedicated adherents of Ayn Rand - and quite frankly they made me nervous. They would brook no criticism of her or even the hint of one. If you had an off the wall sense of humor you would be damned to epistemological hell. There was a reason they were called Randroids.
But there were more important reasons to move on.
I had the good fortune of knowing Dr Hans Sennholz, even before I knew what an Austrian economist was, and over the years, had many conversations with him about economics. He told me I should start with Menger.
Then Murray Rothbard figured more prominently in my thinking. Apart from the Branden essay, Murray's piece The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult was another eye opener.
The firestorm following that was fascinating to behold.
This quote from Joseph R. Stromberg's piece Rand v. Rothbard summed it for me:
1. Many Objectivists have very odd ideas about intellectual history and the nature and growth of systems of thought. One is that an idea, once put into circulation by Rand or one of her Top Certified Acolytes, cannot be elaborated or improved upon by any later thinker, but can only be repeated endlessly in its original form, presumably with copious footnotes to the Great Source. Some Marxist and Freudian sects operate along the same lines, but I won’t call them "cults," as I have sworn to leave the cult question to one side. Another assumption is that any commonplace uttered by Rand and Cadre is decked in primal originality. If Rand ever noted that rain is wet, such Objectivists would ask us to believe that no earlier thinker had ever made that connection.
2. Rand’s originality is held to be so cosmic that anyone living in the 1950s could only have learned of the possibility of rational ethics, realistic philosophy in the tradition of Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas, and the ideas of natural law and natural rights from Rand or her immediate subordinates. That someone could have learned of these ideas from contemporary Thomistic philosophers, who were flourishing at the time, from some conversancy with Western intellectual history, from 18th-century political debates (especially those during the American Revolution), and even from the Old Right movement of the 1940s and early ’50s, which sought to reinvigorate American classical liberalism, is dismissed out of hand.
I now see Rand in a broader historical context. No doubt, because she expressed her ideas in her novels - that became popular, thankfully - she kept the ideas of individual liberty and accountability before the public in away that Mises or even Milton Friedman could never have dreamed of in that era. No doubt, the collectivists were on high alert. But you can't keep a good idea down.
Ultimately, I did see no fundamental confilct between her and the Austrians. I was just turning a phrase when I used the words "collision course."
In the late '70's and early '80's Dr. Sennholz and Murry Rothbard independently encouraged me to pursue economics academically, but I was too interested in building things. So I continued to learn what I could on my own. And I continue to learn.
Ayn Rand is certainly as divisive as she is inspiring.
Mr Baxter, I 'm sure that you would make a cool neighbor
If I were Tim, "the toolman," Taylor you could be Wilson
And I don't have a fence
respectfully
About Rand's place in philosophy. I only have a smattering of philosophy, certainly not enough to understand her place in it. But she did write great, rousing novels, and if someone else thought those ideas, they sure as heck never popularized them, and I doubt that they wove them into an integrated whole.
And with the Atlas Shrugged movie to come out in the near future, who knows what the effect will be on the culture.
Thanks for your kind words. I feel like this site makes me your neighbor.
I still haven't found anything in her philosophy that wasn't said first by John Locke. She put it in more modern, scientific/psychological terms, but it still sounded like Locke to me when I read her novels and her non-fiction.
Tom Mullen
www.tommullen.net
www.myspace.com/skepticsongs
There is quite a bit, outside of political philosophy, such as her moral theory, theory of volition, theory of art, theory of concepts, theories on the contextual nature of certainty that doesn't appear Lockian to me. Her metaphysical theory and her epistemology - outside of her work on certainty and concepts seem more like broad outlines and notes to me - at least from what I have read, and owes an acknowledged debt to Aristotle. Apparently, much more of her work has now been published but I have not read it - most of my reading of philosophy and economics is certainly dated, but then that is simply so of a lot of philosophy.
For instance, in my reading of Locke, he considers sensations as subjective presentations - this would exclude a metaphysics that contained an objective reality. Rand would argue for the connection of the senses to an objective reality which she did in her own works and by proxy in Branden's arguments for the valididty of the senses.
She did acknowledge John Locke as the formulator of the concept of individual rights and as the philosophical fountainhead of the American revolution, though I believe she may have disagreed with him as to the origin of man's rights and in many other areas of philosophy.
Still, the area of concern here is politics, and I think that had they been contemporaries, that their muskets would have pointed in the same direction.
I must admit I am drawn to the strange and unusual and keep an open mind where others do not. I swear my husband and I zero in on each other's brain waves sometimes.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
in my professional opinion all nonsense like this stems from a simple fear of the inevitability of death. most people are too conceded to accept the fact that once their run is over, it's over. they don't want to accept it so they make up bullcrap about a past life and ceiling cat. the mediocre person probably hopes that, even though in 'this life' he has not been able to accomplish much, in the prior life he was an emperor, ruler of people, so there!
i for one, hope that people here will at some point stop posting bullcrap like this so as not to pollute the site and annoy sane people.
I did not try to annoy anyone. You and I had a bit of a disagreement in the evolution debate because I had not seen any evidence of changes in human DNA. I went to look for some and found this. In a way, this "bullcrap" proves you right doesn't it? I sincerely hope you are not going to hold a grudge over the incident. My hand is extended in friendship. I don't feel it necessary to agree with my friends at all times and I also don't feel it is right to make enemies over a simple disagreement about faith or science.
I think your perspective is important even if my perspective is different. My recent quote is a reflection on this.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
i'd have to know you personally to hold a grudge, so no worries there. don't take it so personally, i spread my disdain toward all individuals equally.
as far as agreement and disagreement goes, i prefer to argue about things that exist, not witchcraft, past lives, and auras. all of that is fantasy and should be treated as such. to debate such things with a straight face i cannot do. hence, my offencive commentary. and just for the record, if i offend anyone at anytime by anything, i make no apologies. i've noticed that people are starting to think that they have a right not to be offended. it is a mistake to think that.
as far as changes in human DNA as evidence of evolution... DNA has been around for a couple of decades, right? you want to see evolutionary changes in human beings in a couple of decades? give it some time, be patient, maybe a few hundreds of generations then we can bring this up as a point.
on bullcrap: there are pressing, factual issues that are worth discussing, and there are silly fictional issues made up by people that are not wroth discussing. rule of thumb is that if it's not something that can be observed using the five (and in my case, six) senses, then it's bullcrap, it's annoying to read, and it hurts my brain when i try to comprehend how anyone can keep a straight face discussing it. because it's inconsequential, i would rather offer an opinion on why people chose to buy into it rather than comment on the contents. that is all.
Your opinion on why people buy into it was quite insightful and just as valuable as discussion of the content. I wasn't actually looking for debate because the subject is new to me, I was just looking for insight and discussion, thanks for your insight.
As far as offending people, Mike Muir said it best, "If I offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended." It's all good, offense can be a natural reaction and I can't blame people for it. I guess it is how it is handled that is important.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
offensive and divisive.
So witchcraft is now Evolution! I knew there was a link!
Yeah, there has always been a link. One of my favorite quotes sums it up:
"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything."
-G.K. Chesterton
The only thing that makes people believe in God is brainwashing when they are too young to practice rational thinking. Believing in God is believing in nothing - since there is zero evidence for the existence of God. As for believing in anything, that is something people are far more likely to do once they abandon reason and believe things on the basis of faith. Faith requires no evidence, in fact it requires believing something in spite of the evidence. If people had evidence for something, they'd have no need of faith.
vs. creationism post?
I posted a topic mixed with some unprovable mystical assertions that were claiming to be the next step in human evolution. My bad, but I had been researching these children for days and wanted to discuss with others.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
I didn't even think of it as witchcraft. There was a section where they discussed that the DNA of these children was different. Here is a news clip of a family who thinks it is a gift from God.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
As the skeptic in the vido pointed out, there is no evidense for this alleged phenomena. In the absence of evidense there is nothing to debate.
I find it interesting to note, that in spite of her 'old knowledge', the youngest child behaves like a child, including sucking her fingers.
The last thing they remind me of is charcters from Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Rand was a rationalist, and the last thing she had any patience for was mystical nonsense.
You have a rational and respectable view on this. What do you think about the additional condons mentioned in the interview? I found this site that talks about it as well, but it is obviously biased.
http://www.dnaperfection.com/
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
This got popular and then shot down overnight but no one has commented on how crazy it seems. I think it is news worthy if the human race is evolving in front of our eyes. Not too long ago I was asking the evolutionists if they had any examples of proof for DNA changing. I found it here and it seems as though none of the evolutionists want to discuss this awesome possibility, does anyone want to find out what's going on with me? I'm willing to eat my words if this is true.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
Here are four. Remember that most genetic mutations are generally neutral or harmful. However, many mutations move into the population because in a certain area they may confer a greater advantage than they do harm, for instance, the following is written by Richard Harter:
"Sickle cell resistance to malaria
The sickle cell allele causes the normally round blood cell to have a sickle shape. The effect of this allele depends on whether a person has one or two copies of the allele. It is generally fatal if a person has two copies. If they have one they have sickle shaped blood cells.
In general this is an undesirable mutation because the sickle cells are less efficient than normal cells. In areas where malaria is prevalent it turns out to be favorable because people with sickle shaped blood cells are less likely to get malaria from mosquitoes.
This is an example where a mutation decreases the normal efficiency of the body (its fitness in one sense) but none-the-less provides a relative advantage.
Lactose tolerance
Lactose intolerance in adult mammals has a clear evolutionary explanation; the onset of lactose intolerance makes it easy to wean the young. Human beings, however, have taken up the habit of eating milk products. This is not universal; it is something that originated in cultures that kept cattle and goats. In these cultures lactose tolerance had a strong selective value. In the modern world there is a strong correlation between lactose tolerance and having ancestors who lived in cultures that exploited milk as a food.
It should be understood that it was a matter of chance that the lactose tolerance mutation appeared in a group where it was advantageous. It might have been established first by genetic drift within a group which then discovered that they could use milk. [9]
Resistance to atherosclerosis
Atherosclerosis is principally a disease of the modern age, one produced by modern diets and modern life-styles. There is a community in Italy near Milan (see Appendices II and III for biological details) whose residents don't get atherosclerosis because of a fortunate mutation in one of their forebearers. This mutation is particularly interesting because the person who had the original mutation has been identified.
Note that this is a mutation that is favorable in modern times because (a) people live longer and (b) people have diets and life-styles that are not like those of our ancestors. In prehistoric times this would not have been a favorable mutation. Even today we cannot be certain that this mutation is reproductively favorable, i.e., that people with this mutation will have more than the average number of descendents. It is clear, however, that the mutation is personally advantageous to the individuals having it.
Immunity to HIV
HIV infects a number of cell types including T-lymphocytes, macrophages, dendritic cells and neurons. AIDS occurs when lymphocytes, particularly CD4+ T cells are killed off, leaving the patient unable to fight off opportunistic infections. The HIV virus has to attach to molecules that are expressed on the surface of the T-cells. One of these molecules is called CD4 (or CD4 receptor); another is C-C chemokine receptor 5, known variously as CCR5, CCCKR5 and CKR5. Some people carry a mutant allele of the CCR5 gene that results in lack of expression of this protein on the surface of T-cells. Homozygous individuals are resistant to HIV infection and AIDS. The frequency of the mutant allele is quite high in some populations that have never been exposed to AIDS so it seems likely that there was prior selection for this allele. (See Appendix IV)"
The above is from: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html#Q2
Many questions on mutations are answered here.
Ok, so the change they are seeing in the DNA is simply a mutation and not akin to species change as is insinuated. That makes much more sense to me, having no problem with the concept of adaptation. You rock, thanks for digging that up!
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
i think it's unreasonable to want to observe mutation in DNA to the point where a new species is created in as short a time as a few generations. as far as i know, nobody's claiming that. if that were the case, then the theory of evolution wouldn't be a theory but a hard fact. it follows that if small changes occur in an organism and are passed on from one generation to the next, then enough of such changes would eventually result in the creation of different species. i think that's sounds logical.
The amount of detail Neil has presented puts my Anthro courses to shame. I think since the theory is so common these days people don't really question it. In fact I didn't while I was in school, but have since begun to question everything. I just don't always know where to find the answers, or what is reliable info.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
awesomo is correct that entirely new capabilities of the type imagined in the original posting would take a huge amount of time, much like the development of the eye. The original posting is listing a large number of common changes occuring simultaneously to a considerable number of separated individuals where each change is of a complex nature. I don't think so. Too much complex change much too fast.
Now, one more comment. Evolution by Natural Selection is a theory. It is one description of HOW the process of evolution can occur. Evolution itself is not a theory. Evolution is an observed fact. The observations below are not theoretical, they are facts of reality. That lightning occurs is not a theory, it is an observed fact. An explanation of how lightning occurs is a theory.
"In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the general theory of relativity." (from Wikipedia)
"New species have arisen in historical times however. For example:
A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).
Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).
A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venereal tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).
Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).
Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:
Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).
Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are
the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).
Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).
There is further evidence that speciation can be caused by infection with a symbiont. A Wolbachia bacterium infects and causes postmating reproductive isolation between the wasps Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti (Bordenstein and Werren 1997).
Some young-earth creationists claim that speciation is essential to explain Noah's ark. The ark was not roomy enough to carry and care for all species, so speciation is invoked to explain how the much fewer "kinds" aboard the ark became the diversity we see today. Also, some species have special needs that could not have been met during the flood (e.g., fish requiring fresh water). Creationists assume that they evolved from other, more tolerant organisms since the Flood. (Woodmorappe 1996) "
Edited by Mark Isaac
This is from a site that is a great resource: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html
You even found what I was confused about originally. How could DNA chromosomes change. For example, humans have 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent. Chimps have 48, 24 from each parent. I was having a hard time finding how two chromosomes got lost. So to make sure I am understanding this, through mutation? You would be surprised how basic my Anthro books are with this type of info, they never explained how the loss could occur.
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/
If you are interested, in a great book on naturally ordering systems is "The Blind Watchmaker".
Dawkins demonstrates how order occurs naturally in nature - without a designer.
Another great book is Koestler's The Ghost in the Machine - it demonstrates the hierarchical nature of physical laws.
As in Richard? He write "The Selfish Gene" which we used in a class of mine called Sex, Lies and Immorality. It was a class split between a bio. prof, a psyc. prof and an anthro. prof. We didn't study the whole book, but what we did study was good stuff. I then borrowed it to a neighbor and haven't seen it since. I've been wishing I still had it lately, but all I have left is the evolutionary psych. book, The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. Why we are the way we are... it is my passion. (If you haven't noticed.)
“There is more benefit from speaking out imperfectly than remaining perfectly quiet.”
~ Jahfre Fire Eater http://alphavilledecoder.org/